Fate of the Australian Aborigines in an Axis Victory, and Japanese Australia

Incanian

Incanian

So I was wondering more about Japanese victory in ww2, and I got interested in the fate of Australian Aborigines in a world of a Japanese Australia. Since Japan was viewed as the liberator of all non-white races, I was thinking Japan would grant more rights to Aboriginals.

I could see Natives battling on the side of the Japanese to reclaim Australian rule.

But what do you think? What do you guys think would happen to the Native Australian Population in an Axis victory?
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
Dont know about that, The Japanse did push the whole being the liberator of Asia however the reality for the liberated people was not that great, swap the white master for the Japanese master. I dont know is there is any doco on how the Japanese saw the Aborigines however the idea that they would automatically support the Japanese is fanciful Even back then Aborigines played a part in the defense of Australia as scouts
 

Theoretical_TJ

Given the way the Imperial Japanese treated other non-Yamato race peoples...it is probably worse in some ways and maybe better in others. I know the Aussies did not treat the Aboriginal people even half decently, but I'm not sure where on the spectrum Australia circa 1940 is compared to the Japanese.
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

It's not going to happen. A victory by the Japanese definition was to 1] get resources, which are found in the Dutch East Indies, and 2] be allowed to continue fighting China without an embargo. Neither of these requires an invasion of Australia. This sort of victory is *barely* possible if Japan gets absurd amounts of luck (ie. knocks out the fuel storage at Pearl Harbour, and emerges virtually unscathed at both Coral Sea and Midway, while the US has a lot of bad luck especially with carriers), and then the USA does bend because Japan offers lenient terms (ie. withdraw to their pre-1941 borders in the Pacific but scrap the embargo). That in itself is unlikely, stretching it any further is just going to make the USA more angry/desperate depending on the exact scenario.

Then there's the question of just how Japan gets enough stuff together to invade Australia. I think the numbers for the various operations in 1941 (Malaya, Guam, Philippines, whatever else there was) added together to form like 11 divisions. Gather all those men together, and you have nothing more than 1.5 times the size of the day 1 landings on D-Day. But that's your maximum force. Manchuria and China couldn't be stripped of any more forces. I don't know the full size of the Aussie Army, but I doubt it is much smaller than 11 divisions. To say nothing of the inevitable, massive US reinforcements in an invasion scenario.

Then there's supply issues. Guadalcanal was a nightmare for Japan to supply, Brisbane is about the same distance from Tokyo as that, Sydney and Melbourne are another couple of thousand kms. Good luck protecting a route that long from US subs.

But for the sake of argument, let's say an ASB comes along and drowns the entire US fleet and Japan gets given so much stuff that they can pull this off, now what?

The position of the Aboriginals will not change drastically. They don't have the population to. The numbers of them were always in the low hundreds of thousands IIRC, the total (nearly all white) Australian population at this time is on the order of 7-8 mil. The Japanese don't have the resources to massacre 8 million people, so the whites will rule the roost. Any attempt to change that will likely spark a revolt.

Incanian said:
Since Japan was viewed as the liberator of all non-white races, I was thinking Japan would grant more rights to Aboriginals.
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Chinese people aren't white, they were massacred. Korean people aren't white, they were treated like slaves. The Japanese Empire was always about Japanese superiority over anyone they could find, nothing more and nothing less.

- BNC
 
Incanian

Incanian

Pangur said:
Dont know about that, The Japanse did push the whole being the liberator of Asia, however, the reality for the liberated people was not that great, swap the white master for the Japanese master. I dont know is there is any doco on how the Japanese saw the Aborigines however the idea that they would automatically support the Japanese is fanciful Even back then Aborigines played a part in the defense of Australia as scouts
Click to expand...

Yeah your right, but I mean they viewed themselves as the superior Asian race, but native Australians are not Asian. Also, I mean, the Japanese would just want as many allies as possible. I mean there weren't many Australians in 1940, but in an Axis victory, there'd be a lot of Migration, and you can expect a lot of Japanese would go to Australia. Especially rich ones, leaving to go to the Australian East Coast. Hitler even said himself, when the Japanese win, the white race will virtually disappear. The Natives don't pose too much of a threat, but they'd be helpful for military purposes.

I'd say the Japanese might have interest in Australian traditions. I think conflict might only start when they start going further deep into the Australian Continent, but since the Coasts have the best living standards, the conflict might not happen. They didn't have the power to face the British, they probably won't against the Japanese.

I'm not saying they'd automatically support the Japanese, but the Japanese could lure the idea of equal rights.

They were treated pretty bad under the British, with the Stolen Generation, and all that, so they'd just switch the white ruler, with the Asian ruler, and see where things go from there.
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
They were treated as worse that shit BTH under the rule of up the 40`s Aussie rule heck they were not even seen as human. Total and utter shame for that behavior however as stated in previous posts here the Japanese where not exactly great when it came to equaity to non Japanese races
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

Incanian said:
in an Axis victory, there'd be a lot of Migration, and you can expect a lot of Japanese would go to Australia
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Again, Australia's white population was close to 8 million. To have parity between Japanese and whites in Australia, you need 8 million Japanese to go to Australia. Which is nearly 10% of the entire population of the Home Islands. Unless everyone in Japan got a message saying "the gods are going to drop a hundred nukes on the Home Islands next Friday", you aren't going to see a migration of that scale in any reasonable timescale. Not to mention the fact that Australia at this time didn't have the infrastructure to support 16 million people. If Japan isn't having that sort of migration, then they'll be assimilated into being Australians, not the other way around.

- BNC
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
BiteNibbleChomp said:
Again, Australia's white population was close to 8 million. To have parity between Japanese and whites in Australia, you need 8 million Japanese to go to Australia. Which is nearly 10% of the entire population of the Home Islands. Unless everyone in Japan got a message saying "the gods are going to drop a hundred nukes on the Home Islands next Friday", you aren't going to see a migration of that scale in any reasonable timescale. Not to mention the fact that Australia at this time didn't have the infrastructure to support 16 million people. If Japan isn't having that sort of migration, then they'll be assimilated into being Australians, not the other way around.

- BNC
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There is this and then there is the matter of having to win in the first place, No chance on that
 
Incanian

Incanian

BiteNibbleChomp said:
It's not going to happen. A victory by the Japanese definition was to 1] get resources, which are found in the Dutch East Indies, and 2] be allowed to continue fighting China without an embargo. Neither of these requires an invasion of Australia. This sort of victory is *barely* possible if Japan gets absurd amounts of luck (ie. knocks out the fuel storage at Pearl Harbour, and emerges virtually unscathed at both Coral Sea and Midway, while the US has a lot of bad luck especially with carriers), and then the USA does bend because Japan offers lenient terms (ie. withdraw to their pre-1941 borders in the Pacific but scrap the embargo). That in itself is unlikely, stretching it any further is just going to make the USA more angry/desperate depending on the exact scenario.

Then there's the question of just how Japan gets enough stuff together to invade Australia. I think the numbers for the various operations in 1941 (Malaya, Guam, Philippines, whatever else there was) added together to form like 11 divisions. Gather all those men together, and you have nothing more than 1.5 times the size of the day 1 landings on D-Day. But that's your maximum force. Manchuria and China couldn't be stripped of any more forces. I don't know the full size of the Aussie Army, but I doubt it is much smaller than 11 divisions. To say nothing of the inevitable, massive US reinforcements in an invasion scenario.

Then there's supply issues. Guadalcanal was a nightmare for Japan to supply, Brisbane is about the same distance from Tokyo as that, Sydney and Melbourne are another couple of thousand kms. Good luck protecting a route that long from US subs.

But for the sake of argument, let's say an ASB comes along and drowns the entire US fleet and Japan gets given so much stuff that they can pull this off, now what?

The position of the Aboriginals will not change drastically. They don't have the population to. The numbers of them were always in the low hundreds of thousands IIRC, the total (nearly all white) Australian population at this time is on the order of 7-8 mil. The Japanese don't have the resources to massacre 8 million people, so the whites will rule the roost. Any attempt to change that will likely spark a revolt.


Chinese people aren't white, they were massacred. Korean people aren't white, they were treated like slaves. The Japanese Empire was always about Japanese superiority over anyone they could find, nothing more and nothing less.

- BNC
Click to expand...

Well I was just talking about after an Axis Victory. About the fate of Australian Aborigines in an Axis Victory, not necessarily about how they would conquer Australia.

I mean I'm guessing that the Japanese would probably send a lot of troops to Australia, but if the Japanese say "Hey Aboriginals, if you help us put down revolutions, you'll get equal rights with Japanese citizens. Yeah 100,000 ain't that much, but it would be a good supliment for soilders.

Also sorry if I put the wrong thing. I ws basically saying the Japanese were liberating Asia, and the rest of the world from colonial "white" rule, but I agree they were not pro-independence.
 
Incanian

Incanian

Pangur said:
They were treated as worse that shit BTH under the rule of up the 40`s Aussie rule heck they were not even seen as human. Total and utter shame for that behavior however as stated in previous posts here the Japanese where not exactly great when it came to equaity to non Japanese races
Click to expand...

Even if they are not classifying them as equal, then the best way to start off would be like not classifying them as local Australian Fauna, or giving land back to them that they might have lost, or maybe giving back some of the lost generation members.
 
Incanian

Incanian

BiteNibbleChomp said:
Again, Australia's white population was close to 8 million. To have parity between Japanese and whites in Australia, you need 8 million Japanese to go to Australia. Which is nearly 10% of the entire population of the Home Islands. Unless everyone in Japan got a message saying "the gods are going to drop a hundred nukes on the Home Islands next Friday", you aren't going to see a migration of that scale in any reasonable timescale. Not to mention the fact that Australia at this time didn't have the infrastructure to support 16 million people. If Japan isn't having that sort of migration, then they'll be assimilated into being Australians, not the other way around.

- BNC
Click to expand...

Well, you could justify migration by the Japanese government saying like "Go to Australia because it's really nice there, and there's lot's of land out for sale!" If you can't make it in Japan, go to Australia, and start a company there. That's what they could have done. Since the Japanese after victory would probably have a large economy, some of that could be redirected to Australia.
 
Pangur

Pangur

Donor
Incanian said:
Even if they are not classifying them as equal, then the best way to start off would be like not classifying them as local Australian Fauna, or giving land back to them that they might have lost, or maybe giving back some of the lost generation members.
Click to expand...
You will never get an argument from on the above. What happened was beyond shame. We have so much to do to put this as right as is possible
 

Spens1

If it where at all possible, even worse. The Japanese weren't known as kind rulers, ask the Chinese and Koreans.
 
BiteNibbleChomp

BiteNibbleChomp

Incanian said:
Well, you could justify migration by the Japanese government saying like "Go to Australia because it's really nice there, and there's lot's of land out for sale!" If you can't make it in Japan, go to Australia, and start a company there. That's what they could have done. Since the Japanese after victory would probably have a large economy, some of that could be redirected to Australia.
Click to expand...

You're still talking about 10% migration rate, that's the same level as people leaving Ireland after the Potato Famine (although because Japan has more people than Ireland, on a much larger scale). Nothing short of an extreme catastrophe (like the famine) is going to cause so many people to leave, especially if, as you suggest, Japan has a good economy. Advertising will help a little bit, and over the course of decades you might get 1 or 2%, but if you don't want the Japanese assimilating, decades is too long.

- BNC
 

Spens1

Incanian said:
Well isn't any colonial nation not the most kind rulers to anyone really? Also good too see you again!
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Good to see you too.

Also that is true but the Japanese where exceptionally bad (to the point that they where even worse than British settlers over here)
 
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