Fascists, Soviets, Liberal Democracies, and-?

Strategos' Risk

In Europe, could there have been a fourth ideological bloc during World War II aside from the ones we know?

I love to bring up Unionism, but it's a complete construction by Ian as an exercise in creating a fictional ideology. So what other competing ideologies were there in the time?

Anarchist Spain?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Perhaps a theocratic camp could rise, though most organized religions had been or would end up being co-opted by fascism...

The thing about a resurgent monarchist movement is that it would most likely resemble (if not outright copy) fascism, the only differences probably being that the monarch him/herself takes the role of Leader.

Anarchism is somewhat possible, though the ideology as it was in the '30s was inherently unstable since these were still the bomb-throwing anarchists as opposed to the extreme individualists they would evolve into.

Again, perhaps a theocratic camp that rejects fascism and strives to return the world to time when it followed "God's Law" as opposed to ethno-nationalist and modern "laws."

Anyone think Pius XI (or perhaps someone elected in his stead) could pull off a Khomeini?
 

King Henry

Wolfpaw said:
Perhaps a theocratic camp could rise, though most organized religions had been or would end up being co-opted by fascism...

The thing about a resurgent monarchist movement is that it would most likely resemble (if not outright copy) fascism, the only differences probably being that the monarch him/herself takes the role of Leader.

Anarchism is somewhat possible, though the ideology as it was in the '30s was inherently unstable since these were still the bomb-throwing anarchists as opposed to the extreme individualists they would evolve into.

Again, perhaps a theocratic camp that rejects fascism and strives to return the world to time when it followed "God's Law" as opposed to ethno-nationalist and modern "laws."

Anyone think Pius XI (or perhaps someone elected in his stead) could pull off a Khomeini?
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What would a CNT-FAI Spain look like anyway?

Regarding Pius XI, you'd really the Italian state to either follow the Iranian route of pissing literally everyone of, or maybe going communist and being the mixture of incompetence and brutality that could lead to a clerical revolution.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
King Henry said:
Regarding Pius XI, you'd really the Italian state to either follow the Iranian route of pissing literally everyone of, or maybe going communist and being the mixture of incompetence and brutality that could lead to a clerical revolution.
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I really like this idea and would love to read a TL about this! :D
 

Goldstein

Banned
yourworstnightmare said:
Anarcho- Syndicalism. Just have CNT-FAI take control of Spain and have Makhno survive in the Ukraine.
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Yeah, like that's an easy deal. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, I would love to hear a decent way for this to happpen, as it would make the hell of a scenario.

King Henry said:
What would a CNT-FAI Spain look like anyway?
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How a communal direct democracy without legal restraint would look? Probably like a giant school playground in which peer pressure often reaches inhumane and criminal levels. Which, as a potential for a story, is awesome.
 
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Goldstein

Banned
mmmeee0 said:
Someone shoots Franco in a mugging attempt early in his life?:confused:
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Then probably Emilio Mola or Sanjurjo become the leaders of nationalist Spain. An anarchist Spain would probably need deeper divergences.

If, for example, Izquierda republicana along with the PSOE involve in greater events like the Casas Viejas massacre or they mismanage their reform promises in a way they become totally and universally discredited, and then a radicalized CEDA holds the grip a bit longer... maybe anarchism could become popular enough for a nation-wide revolution to be on schedule.
 

carlton_bach

'Fascist' states were an ideologically extremely mixed bunch, I could easily see a split between two camps widening into something considered genuinely different ideologies. Especially if Germany doesn't get to dominate the lot to the extent it did OTL.

Other than that, if France and Britain were to stay strongly committed tothe defense of colonialism and capitalism in the late 20s and 30s, it's quite possioble that Social Democracy will define itself, or be viewed as, a third, separate type of government, not Communist, but also not Liberal.

And there were, of course, plenty of countries that were just conservative dictatorships, though they were subsumed by the Fascists during the war. Again, givwen more time they might come to define themselves as a cohesive bloc.
 

Strategos' Risk

Well, from this thread,

Kidblast said:
Perhaps a Pan-Slavism of Eastern Europe encompassing Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Albania.

The Nordic Fascism of Germany, Austria, and Scandinavia.

Finally, the Mediterrean type corporatism of Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece. (Albania too might be in this block. It depends who it turns to for protection.)

Perhaps something along these lines:

Olive: Fascism
Blue: Slavism
Grey: Norsefire
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attachment.php


Norsefire is explained as either the creation of puppet regimes under Nazi Germany, Swedish homegrown fascism, or-

Berra said:
Why would Scandinavia go Nazi?
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ninebucks said:
Because they did in OTL... in everything but name.

This thread is simplifying fascism to a significant degree. While its easy to look at OTL and point out a few fascist states, the fact is, almost every state in continental Europe was fascist to some extent. The movement played on fears that were universal throughout 1930s, (economic collapse, cultural disharmony, Soviet expansionism, etc...)

By asking, 'what if there was some sort of vaguely unified ideology of authoritarianism in Eastern Europe?' you are ignoring the reality that there was a vaguely unified ideology of authoritarianism in Eastern Europe. As I said earlier, fascism is specific to the national culture it finds itself in, in many cases, fascism choses not to refer to itself in that name, but that does not mean it is not fascism.

Additionally, if Russia was fascist, the rest of Europe would not be. 'Red Threat' was the most successful tool in fascist propaganda. If Russia was fascist, then the rest of Europe would vote socialist.
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Max Sinister said:
Scandinavia put democracy on hiatus? Scandinavia forced everyone to join mass organisations? Scandinavia indoctrinated kids? Hadn't at least some of their countries Social Democrat governments?
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ninebucks said:
Just going on Sweden here: But democracy was stunted by a complete monopoly on behalf of the Social Democrats, while it was freely elected, an elected dictatorship is still a dictatorship. I'm not sure about mass movements, but Sweden definately didn't have any qualms against indoctrination, neither did they have anything against eugenics and racialist ideologies.

Scandanavian Social Democracy, especially in the 1930s and 40s, borrowed heavily from fascist ideology.
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Scandinavian Social Democracy as a different form of fascism is an entertaining idea. There was also quite a lot of talk in that thread about "Slavism" but that's even more convoluted and controversial.
 

Awilla the Hun

Bulletin just in from Animal Farm...

Comrades!

Our Leader, Comrade Napoleon, calls upon the animals of Europe to rise against their tyrannical human masters! Together, we can sweep aside the humanistic-imperialist aggressors.

Together, Comrades, we can win.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On a serious note, perhaps a Tsarist Russia, but a militaristic one which still gets the West terrified about the Russian Bear (rather than the Red Menace) can form a power bloc on its own. After all, if the Russian people are informed that they were dragged into the War by alliance with France-a Western democracy-and that they were attacked by Germany and Austrio-Hungary (the now Fascist powers), then who knows...

Of course, this then requires there to be a communist power/bloc of powers instead. Perhaps Spain? (Unlikely, due to sheer weight of butterflies.)
 

Berra

I'm with Carlton on this, Facist Italy and Nazi Germany could have gone to war against each other.
 

Leistungsfähiger Amerikan

I think the best bet would be a more moderate form of socialism that perhaps evolves from the anarchists. Anarcho-syndicalism could be a good option for this. Some charismatic revolutionary has a split with the USSR, and convinces anarchists to follow him. Conversely, a group of facsict could split off from 'traditional facism' and be more radically pro-capitalism could drift toward Anarcho-capitalism, which could be financed by American industrialists. Oh, and obviously the Wikipedia pages tell about how non-aggressive these two ideologies are, but these things always work differently in practice than in theory. So perhaps we could see an anarcho-capitalism Italy and Spain, plus a Anarcho-syndicalist Yugoslavia?
 

Dan Reilly The Great

Banned
I once toyed with the idea of a TL in which the tunguska impact hits St. Petersburg in stead resulting in a theocratic movement rising in russia under the belief that the meteor or comet fragment was actually divine retribution for the excesses of the Russian autocracy. Strangely enough I think any such movement would have behaved similarly to the Soviet Union OTL.
 

Strategos' Risk

I've always thought about what if there's a Trotskyist Republican Spain operating at the edge of Europe opposite of the USSR. What if Tito successfully stages a revolution at some point, and his Yugoslavia looks towards an ahistorical Spain (that had stabilized earlier) instead of Stalin's Soviet Union?
 

The Vulture

Banned
Maybe simple warlordism, similar to what we had in China at about this time.

Of course, that's not an ideology, but thought I'd throw the idea out there.
 
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