Fascist Ireland

BGMan

Derek Jackson said:
Ireland going for the AXIS requires an earlier POD or ASB's- unless Britain actually treated Ireland like Russia treated Finland.
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What would be even more interesting is if Ireland then treated Britain like Finland treated Russia. :D
 

dmz23

The Irish Public was certainly not as biased toward Britain as the De Valera government was,most people were divided on who to support in the early days of the war.If Ireland did declare support for the axis,Britain would definately invade the country,but a significant portion of their military would be tied down fighting a guerrila war against a hostile irish population[something Churchill was warned about in OTL].
 

Tyr

British troops would march into Ireland as one of the first actions of the war and install one of the more sane parties into power- Ireland may then join the allies.

There would be no guerilla war, no annexation. It'd be like the liberation of any other fascist country.
The majority of the Irish didn't want to be part of the British empire anymore but they were a long way from wanting to go to war with Britain.- a lot saner then that too for the most part.
 

Alratan

It would probably be good for the Allies if this happens, actually. It shouldn't impact any of the other campaigns to a great extent, and it gives the allies an early victory before the fall of France, possibly averting it. It would also give the allies access to the Irish ports.
 

Alratan

Actually, if the BEF was in Ireland, then the British would be much better off even in the event that France did fall.
 

Derek Jackson

I heard that my Southern Irish uncle was conscripted when he came to England because for almost all purposes Irish citizens were treated as UK citizens. However, given the history, Britain did not seek to impose conscription on Northern Ireland and a friend of my uncle was exempt from conscription.
 

OperationGreen

Derek Jackson said:
I heard that my Southern Irish uncle was conscripted when he came to England because for almost all purposes Irish citizens were treated as UK citizens. However, given the history, Britain did not seek to impose conscription on Northern Ireland and a friend of my uncle was exempt from conscription.
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My Great uncle Volunteered in 1941 To join the RAF as a Lancaster Tail gunner, He was Southern Irish, He left Safety to fight the nazis.....
 

Haggis

I think we're all forgetting the North Irish Horse, a tank and armoured car regiment that by about 42 or 43 was flooded with Southern Irish off to fight the Nazis.

The North Irish horse along with the 1st Canadian Infantry Division is what broke the Hitler Line.

Many people seem to forget Southern Irish, Canadian, and even minor Mexican involvement when it comes to WWII.
 

stodge

Irish Neutrality

Some inaccuracies in some of these postings, I'm afraid. The Eire Government DID present condolences to the German Ambassador in Dublin on May 1st 1945, an action roundly condemned by the British Government and different to the attitude of the Swedes, who did not present condolences.

I think perhaps Hitler might have offered Eire Ulster in the event of the defeat of Britain but the end of British control of Ulster as well as Gibraltar would have been the inevitable consequence of British defeat.

It's not generally known that Dublin was bombed on a number of occasions by the Germans in 1940 and 1941. The German pilots thought the city was Liverpool which, without radar and in the dark, I suppose is understandable.

As others have argued, Irish neutrality was far from even-handed and the same was true of Swedish neutrality. From 1940-42, the onus was on not antagonising the Germans - from then on, it became a question of co-existing with the allies.

I'm puzzled as to why Ireland didn't join the war on the Allied side in say March 1945, along with the likes of Egypt and Turkey. I suppose it would have been a gesture but, as others have commented, amny thousands of Southern Irishmen volunteered and fought for the allies.

Had Ireland voluntarily joined the Axis, say in June 1940, it might have been very difficult for the British if German forces had been able to operate out of Dublin, Cork and Rosslare and German aircraft would have been able to bomb more effectively. That said, I'm also sure that in the light of the Norway experience, the British would have moved first even with their weakened post-Dunkirk forces and occupied key Irish centres before the Germans.
 

Landshark

stodge said:
I'm puzzled as to why Ireland didn't join the war on the Allied side in say March 1945, along with the likes of Egypt and Turkey. I suppose it would have been a gesture but, as others have commented, amny thousands of Southern Irishmen volunteered and fought for the allies.
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I think that would be down to how the Irish (or rather the Irish government) saw their relationship with Britain. As someone else mentioned in 1939 Ireland was technically part of the British Commonwealth but unlike, as far as I know, all other Commonwealth countries it did not enter the war on the British side. Even South Africa which had a much larger pro Nazi minority declared war on Germany. I see Ireland as viewing it's neutrality as vital to maintaining it's independence, both actual and in terms of freedom to pursue it's own foreign and economic policies, without British domination.

Had Ireland voluntarily joined the Axis, say in June 1940, it might have been very difficult for the British if German forces had been able to operate out of Dublin, Cork and Rosslare and German aircraft would have been able to bomb more effectively. That said, I'm also sure that in the light of the Norway experience, the British would have moved first even with their weakened post-Dunkirk forces and occupied key Irish centres before the Germans.
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I'm not sure if Ireland joining the Axis would be that dangerous for Britain. Actually getting forces to Ireland would have been pretty difficult considering that Germany was incapable of getting it's army across the Channel and as you've pointed out more Irishmen were prepared to fight for England than Germany so I can see a tiny German force being stranded in the midst of a hostile population that will be welcoming a British relief force.
 

stodge

Response..

Thanks for the comments, Landshark. There is of course the facinating What IFs of South Africa declaring neutrality and how that might have affected post-war history. As for Ireland, I suspect that, rather like the Swedish Government, De Valera would have seen a belated declaration of war as at best opportunistioc and at worst downright cynical. No one would have trusted Irish neutrality again. Hence, for example, the Irish refusal to join NATO.

I'm not sure if Ireland joining the Axis would be that dangerous for Britain. Actually getting forces to Ireland would have been pretty difficult considering that Germany was incapable of getting it's army across the Channel and as you've pointed out more Irishmen were prepared to fight for England than Germany so I can see a tiny German force being stranded in the midst of a hostile population that will be welcoming a British relief force.
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My scenario would involve the German forces arriving without opposition - not likely unless a Norway-style coup de main were possible. As for the sympathy of the population, a lot would depend, I suppose, on what Germany offered. Economic help perhaps and most important a commitment to the recovery of Ulster (an integral part of the Eire Constitition, Clause 2 I think). I suspect that with careful propaganda, a skill at which Goebbels was adroit as we know, the Irish might well have "welcomed" German support.

The presence of a large armed force on the other side of the border would have forced the British to reinforce their presence in Ulster and there is always the option of a diversionary attack from Donegal.

Overall, I'm inclined to the view that even if De Valera had fallen for the Nazi propaganda line in June 1940 and joined the Axis, it wouldn't have got far. It might be there would have been a coup or a revolt of some sort. The other thought is that it would have destroyed Fianna Fail politically perhaps causing a schism which would have made post-1945 Irish politics more interesting.
 

Alratan

My scenario would involve the German forces arriving without opposition - not likely unless a Norway-style coup de main were possible. As for the sympathy of the population, a lot would depend, I suppose, on what Germany offered. Economic help perhaps and most important a commitment to the recovery of Ulster (an integral part of the Eire Constitition, Clause 2 I think). I suspect that with careful propaganda, a skill at which Goebbels was adroit as we know, the Irish might well have "welcomed" German support.
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I don't think this is likely. The RN would be nearly as capable of preventing the Germans sailing to Ireland as to mainland Britain
 

DuQuense

I saw some where that the British Interned in Ireland were given leave to go into the nearby towns, during the Day, and expected to return to the POW camps in the evenings.
If one of the British did use this to return to Britian, he was sent back. So as not to Piss off the Irish, and ruin it for the others.
 
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