Eyes Turned Skywards

I'm reminded of the old saw--"How does it steer?" "Quite well, thank you." :) Like you say, based on Soviet history, probably a vernier engine. Don't ask me for the specs on which specific engine, though.

And, of course, I'd like to thank Michel for his hard work on these great-looking drawings.

Dam, i knew had forgot something...

how Soviet and russian space program deal with problem, if there NO political pressure.
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Here's the deal

That original plan is seven pages long. The rule of thumb in scripting is that one page equals one minute of runtime.

It's a plan, not a script. That's what a plan is.

Alien Nation was cancelled after a season, and although I will concede that Quantum Leap is science-fiction, it isn't even remotely space opera. That would be like lumping Lost and The West Wing together because they're both dramatic series. If anything Quantum Leap is alternate history - which, granted, is a genre near and dear to all of us.

You said IOTL TNG didn't have competition. I named two.

They aren't going to switch to CGI in their final season. Nothing can justify that expense when they have four seasons worth of stock footage to fall back on, and it's probably much cheaper to build and film any additional models than it would be to make the switch (an expensive proposition in 1993). Yes, DS9 made the switch with just two seasons to go, but that's still more proportionally (2/7 - 28.57%) than it would be for B5 in this instance (1/5 - 20%), and DS9 could also create infrastructure for the much-younger Voyager at the same time (meaning that Paramount got an additional return on their investment)..

Paramount didn't get a return on its investment: it subcontracted the modelmaking out to a third-party (with an instant leap of quality, btw). There wasn't an accountant going "Well, we make X investment on models a,b,c, we amortise that at 5% depreciation pa over seven years and write the remainder off in year eight". Modelmaking in this context was a service rendered, not a capital good created.

The whole reason why CGI took off so dramatically was that it became much cheaper to do a single model, and the cost of extra models became zero - once you've built one virtual starfury, you can just as easily film thousands, wheras with physical models there's no economies of scale, and even compositing has a cost. The critical factor with CGI is render time: the crucial realisation is that by networking low-cost machines together, you can turn them into a render farm and do the rendering over the weekend. For ITTL 1989B5 to go CGI in season 5, you need the hardware, the animation software, the realisation that texture mapping is necessary, compositing software, and a render farm. It's tricky, but given the concentration of talent in Vancouver ITTL (and in Canada IOTL: bear in mind Alias and Softimage were Canadian companies), you could just about pull it off. And it would be cheaper.

The plan you have in your head (using compositing to reuse footage in the same way that the 70's BSG was done) just won't work. It was crude even by 70's standards, and if we assume ITTL:TNV had the same sophistication as IOTL:TNG, then 70's BSG-level effects will be laughed off the screen

...Stuff...

Give me about two weeks. I can get you a realistic Babylon 5, filmed in Vancouver, shown from 1989 to 1993, with five seasons, a realistic cast, crew, producing setup, locations, internal office politics, full-on space battles, a story arc that starts with the Gathering and has a series finale that ends with "...My name is Valen, and we have much work ahead of us..." I can even realistically get you Sandra Bullock as Laurel Takashima (seasons 1-3 only).

If you say yes, I can do it here, and you can incorporate it into the official ETS TL. If you say no, I can do it on a thread in its own right as an unofficial spinoff c.f. the various Protect and Survive spinoffs.
 
You said IOTL TNG didn't have competition. I named two.
He said it had no "real" competition, which meant there was no other mainstream scifi on TV in this period competing with it. Quantum Leap was a different kind of show, more of a period piece than scifi. Alien Nation might be more of a competition, but it's not a space opera, it's set on Earth just with some aliens. Moreover, this far out from the PoD, who's to say if it exists at all? Brainbin, Workable Goblin, and myself. There's a gap for a space opera, and Babylon 5 fills it.
The whole reason why CGI took off so dramatically was that it became much cheaper to do a single model, and the cost of extra models became zero - once you've built one virtual starfury, you can just as easily film thousands, wheras with physical models there's no economies of scale, and even compositing has a cost. The critical factor with CGI is render time: the crucial realisation is that by networking low-cost machines together, you can turn them into a render farm and do the rendering over the weekend.
The point about costs and rendering time may have been true by the mid-90s, but it was much less true around the turn of the decade. Moreover, even today, those models have extensive cost in construction; there's an initial investment in the time required to model--and making a model with the same detail as a physical shooting model is not a trivial endeavor, as I'm sure nixonshead would be willing to attest. You should see the level of work that goes into even his models, and the ones that professionals would have to do to replace physical motion control models in Season 5 would require orders of magnitude more work.
For ITTL 1989B5 to go CGI in season 5, you need the hardware, the animation software, the realisation that texture mapping is necessary, compositing software, and a render farm. It's tricky, but given the concentration of talent in Vancouver ITTL (and in Canada IOTL: bear in mind Alias and Softimage were Canadian companies), you could just about pull it off. And it would be cheaper.
It would be cheaper than what? Then one more year of just filming the existing physical models on the existing setups? Sure, you couldn't do the same kind of thousand-ship battle scenes that way, but the option then is to write to the restrictions or sink a couple million bucks or more into the last season of a show into an untried technology. Is it maybe doable if all the stars aligned? Perhaps, but I'm inclined to give it the thumbs-down. It's not like he'd need to cut that much--you can do large battles with limited numbers of models and compositing. Check out the Original Trilogy of Star Wars for proof. In their own way, it gives these types of battles more impact because they're more rare and because anything you're seeing on screen has more camera attention on it.
Give me about two weeks. I can get you a realistic Babylon 5, filmed in Vancouver, shown from 1989 to 1993, with five seasons, a realistic cast, crew, producing setup, locations, internal office politics, full-on space battles, a story arc that starts with the Gathering and has a series finale that ends with "...My name is Valen, and we have much work ahead of us..." I can even realistically get you Sandra Bullock as Laurel Takashima (seasons 1-3 only).
If you say yes, I can do it here, and you can incorporate it into the official ETS TL. If you say no, I can do it on a thread in its own right as an unofficial spinoff c.f. the various Protect and Survive spinoffs.
While the offer is appreciated, I think we'll decline. Frankly, that's way more detail about B5 than this TL needs--for instance, we don't really care about Sandra Bullock, we have no strong interest in what line the series finale ends with, or the office politics. Additionally, we're not at this time planning to authorize any spinoffs, so if you'd refrain from creating any, I'd appreciate it.
 
grunt-level animators will work for pizza, pepsi and pron

He said it had no "real" competition, which meant there was no other mainstream scifi on TV in this period competing with it. Quantum Leap was a different kind of show, more of a period piece than scifi. Alien Nation might be more of a competition, but it's not a space opera, it's set on Earth just with some aliens.

No, you're wrong. Quantum Leap is science-fiction. It was on NBC. It got good viewing figures. It had the largest proportion of female viewers of a science-fiction show until Buffy came along. So it was mainstream, it was science fiction, it was on a network. So yes, it was competition for IOTL TNG. It was tremendous competition. Arguably it was a bigger mainstream success than IOTL TNG.

The point about costs and rendering time may have been true by the mid-90s, but it was much less true around the turn of the decade.

Given that IOTL B5 started filming in 1992, that statement cannot be true. Unless you're defining 1992 as "the mid 90's"

Moreover, even today, those models have extensive cost in construction; there's an initial investment in the time required to model--and making a model with the same detail as a physical shooting model is not a trivial endeavor, as I'm sure nixonshead would be willing to attest. You should see the level of work that goes into even his models.

Aren't you agreeing with me here? Physical shooting models are big, heavy, expensive, and difficult to build and move. Which is my point.

...the ones that professionals would have to do to replace physical motion control models in Season 5 would require orders of magnitude more work.

No, they would require orders of magnitude less.

The CGI scene in the 80's/90's made critical realisations. The one about the multiply-networked cheap computers making expensive ones unnecessary has already been discussed. Another was the realisation that texture mapping added considerable detail at little extra cost. The heavy greebling required to add detail is time-consuming in the physical world, but trivial in CGI. Physical model detailing requires small physical objects to be placed on/drilled out of the hull, but the CGI equivalent would require those details to be faked on a texture map and then overlaid on CGI wire frame. It's a lot simpler process.

So you would need one modeler to do the virtual model, and a graphic artist to do the textures. Even better, if you take good quality photograph of the physical model (focus set at infinity, camera on rig perpendicular to the model, model evenly lit), you could scan that photograph and map the resultant texture map straight onto a CGI wireframe, thus minimising the need for a graphic artist.

It would be cheaper than what? Then one more year of just filming the existing physical models on the existing setups?

Yes. It works like that. It's always worked like that. Phil Tippett's go-motion dinosaurs were junked overnight for Jurassic Park when Spielberg saw (ILM's?) CGI dinosaurs. As has already been discussed, Netter dumped Thornton for his own company, and in turn the makers of DS9 dropped their existing arrangement for Thornton.

Sure, you couldn't do the same kind of thousand-ship battle scenes that way, but the option then is to write to the restrictions or sink a couple million bucks or more into the last season of a show into an untried technology.

My point, which I have stated repeatedly both here and in previous posts, is that it wouldn't take a couple million bucks for the CGI. Once you have the networked desktops (less than £100K, even for the period), the cost is for the people, and the grunt-level animators will work for pizza, pepsi and pron. It would be much cheaper than physical modelling.

Is it maybe doable if all the stars aligned? Perhaps, but I'm inclined to give it the thumbs-down. It's not like he'd need to cut that much--you can do large battles with limited numbers of models and compositing. Check out the Original Trilogy of Star Wars for proof.

Go count the number of spacecraft on the screen at any one time during the original Star Wars: A New Hope. I think I'm correct in saying it's always single figures, and usually less than five.

There are a few scenes of lots of spaceships in Return of the Jedi. But there wren't many and they were expensive (and, famously, one of them includes a mistake).

Sure, you couldn't do the same kind of thousand-ship battle scenes that way, but the option then is to write to the restrictions...In their own way, it gives these types of battles more impact because they're more rare and because anything you're seeing on screen has more camera attention on it.

As I have repeatedly said before, limiting your space battles to physical models and compositing reduces the number, speed and kills the camera manouverability dead. The limited action you can then display changes the story: it becomes more stagy and talky, which for B5 is a decidedly mixed blessing. Even worse, the constraints lead to two-dimensional presentations and a preponderance of talking-head vs. talking-head space battle, where the captain of a single ship dialogues with another, with both ships visible in the frame (see damn-nearly every Star Trek film and tv show). This changes the show qualitatively.

I have presented to you the reasons why the 1989B5 you have outlined would not work. Merely gainsaying them will not change this. I have outlined solutions to the problems you have missed and can implement them.

While the offer is appreciated, I think we'll decline. Frankly, that's way more detail about B5 than this TL needs--for instance, we don't really care about Sandra Bullock, we have no strong interest in what line the series finale ends with, or the office politics. Additionally, we're not at this time planning to authorize any spinoffs, so if you'd refrain from creating any, I'd appreciate it.

As one of the ETS timeline authors you have the moral authority to restrain me from presenting a 1989B5 as part of this timeline. So I will not do that.

But you do not have the authority, moral or otherwise, to prevent me from presenting a 1989B5 on a separate thread. Since that 1989B5 involves concepts which you have consistently argued against, you have no authorial ownership of it. To avoid accusations of plagiarism, I will present the original posts, state that "the following timeline is consistent with post X but the authors of ETS have not authorised it and this is not a part of that timeline", or words to that effect. Similarly, posts after that point will take no cognisance of the ETS timeline.
 
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Awesome work, Michel Van! Great to see more detail on this Russian workhorse!

Also, nice cartoon - reminds me of a few meetings I've been in!

Thanks
next week i work up the Europa rocket drawings for EtS

e of pi, one question to TA version of Europa 2, just 2 or maximum 4 x Black Diamants booster ?
 
Part III, Post 6: The Gore administration, chaos at NASA, and the Richards-Davis Report
Good afternoon, everyone! It's that time once again, and this week we'll be looking at what the incoming Gore administration thinks about where to go in space.

Eyes Turned Skyward, Part III: Post #6

When Gore was inaugurated as President in January 1993, he had three major goals for the space program. First, with the end of the Cold War, he aimed to reap the “peace dividend” with a drawdown in defense spending. While he foresaw a hard sell on the Hill for any cuts to the military-industrial complex, he recalled the hard-sell that Constellation had required on the hill, and anticipated that checking the year-to-year increases to NASA’s budget could be popular with the Republican House--and a test case for cuts to the more traditional military-industrial complex. However, at the same time, he recognized that spaceflight leadership had been a key part of US soft power for more than a quarter century, and that the diplomatic and scientific initiatives it represented might be even more useful for maintaining American influence with the end of the Cold War and the slimming of the conventional military. Thus, his second vision was for a continuation of NASA’s pioneering efforts in spaceflight, specifically Constellation, Freedom, and scientific missions while also adding new emphasis to ongoing technology development and research more applicable to life on Earth, particularly for given technologies like satellite television, satellite data relays, and GPS which were beginning to flourish commercially. Finally, Gore wanted to promote co-operation to tie the world together, both with traditional allies like the NATO nations and with newer potential partners like the Chinese and the Russians. In Gore’s eyes the space program had already proved a valuable way to build ties, as the ongoing participation of ESA, Japan, and others in Freedom proved, and he wished to continue this, establishing a degree of global cooperation in space, an alliance of space-faring nations with the USA at its head working peacefully in orbit and beyond as an example for those back home on Earth.

Given how these goals asked NASA to accomplish more with less, while working more closely with other agencies on new programs (a recipe for confusion and failure if poorly implemented), Gore would need to have an Administrator he could trust to share and advocate for his vision as much in the halls of NASA HQ and the various centers as on the Hill. While Bush had aimed to change just the scope of NASA’s reach, Gore’s plans aim to change the way the agency would operation; he’d need a strong advocate on the inside if he wanted to overcome decades of inertia. Thus, in spite of respect for Administrator Schmitt’s service as administrator under Bush, when Schmitt tendered the traditional resignation at the start of the new administration Gore accepted it, and took the chance to make his own selection, nominating Lloyd Davis, a relative nobody from NASA HQ who Gore had met through work in the Senate. Though the joke on the Hill was that Gore had made the pick with the goal that there be one person in the executive branch with less charisma than himself, Davis’ selection was in fact the first volley of Gore’s attempt to recast the space program along his intended lines. A native of northeastern Ohio, Davis had been fascinated by spaceflight from an early age. Excelling academically, he had studied aerospace engineering at Purdue, receiving his bachelors degree and then returning to his home state to work at NASA Glenn in electric propulsion system research. However, after a few years, Davis was headhunted into industry, accepting a position with Aerojet. He would spend almost a decade there, gaining an insider’s view of the industry side of aerospace as he moved from engineering to management before returning to government work, this time at NASA HQ. At headquarters, Davis’ job had included dealing with strategic visions and their intersection with the budgetary realities enforced by the Office of Management and Budget. While he had never lost his passion for ambition in space, his time in industry and at the intersection of policy and budget left him with a fine grasp of the practical realities of space exploration. Moreover, Davis was a shrewd engineer--capable of maintaining a broad situational picture in his head and more than willing to pick at threads of detail in an answer to a question or a suggested solution to a problem until it unraveled completely as unviable or to discover the core value of a concept. While rather withdrawn in person, he had a reputation for letting loose in forceful memos and dramatic conference calls when his patience was stretched by attempts to dodge points. With Davis already having a firm grasp of the general picture of Constellation, Gore wanted him to put this keen understanding to work on every aspect of the agency to review it from the bottom up in line with his new objectives, a task he wanted to have done in the first two months after the inauguration. As was traditional, the White House’s main face on the review fell to the Vice President, a task Ann Richards embraced, and the end document presented to the President in April, the “Interim 60-day Progress Report on the State of the National Air and Space Administration” quickly became known as the “Richards-Davis Report”.

The agency that the report profiled was in a state of near-schizophrenic action. The Ares and Artemis program offices were in the middle of receiving and dissecting the results from the first major rounds of Constellation Phase A study contracts, with almost every topic imaginable under review. For Artemis, concepts for landers of every design imaginable from LMs on steroids to “crasher” designs that would use larger hydrogen stages to brake a lander most of the way down to the surface to single-stage reusable landers to landers that would use multiple thrust axes or land on their “sides” were under consideration, along with virtually every combination of fuels ever proposed for use in spacecraft, from hydrogen to methane to hypergolics to--in one memorable study from Langley--a solid-fuel ascent stage for increased reliability after long periods on the surface. The process of getting that lander and its crew to the moon was also in flux, with studies considering using Earth orbit rendezvous, lunar orbit rendezvous, use of various Lagrange point meeting points, and any and all combinations thereof. The architectures mostly examined hydrogen departure stages, but of many and varied sizes and configurations, ranging from huge new monolithic stages launched fully fueled aboard Saturn Heavies to clustered Centaurs, either separately launched and assembled in orbit, or launched empty and filled by additional flights. The mission capabilities were similarly incredibly varied, as were the durations, though most studies had quickly converged on a crew size of four. Almost all, however, assumed that some kind of base would follow on the initial sorties, despite Congressional rejection of a definite commitment to such permanent outposts, and aimed at systems that could serve both roles. Many studies even looked directly at applying lessons from Apollo and Freedom into a longterm plan for operations of a potential permanent base, harnessing local resources to supplement supplies and fuel from Earth. The Ares program office’s studies were--incredibly--even more varied, as without the immediate time pressure of Artemis they had even greater flexibility to dream about technology and architectures. Some proposed Zubrin-esque single-launch monster missions, while others favored more von-Braun-style flotillas of spacecraft, built up in Earth orbit to fly to Mars as a convoy. Especially in conjunction with the last, there were multiple proposals for propellant depots, pre-positioning fuel caches in LEO, at the Lagrange points, and potentially even in Mars orbit. The proposed sources varied as much as the depots’ locations; besides the mundane option of launching the fuel from Earth, mining oxygen from the lunar regolith or cracking it, together with hydrogen, from the ice deposits hinted at by the Lunar Reconnaissance Pioneer were proposed to fill the tanks of future Mars-bound spacecraft. Even more speculatively, the potential ice content of Phobos or Deimos could be mined in the same way to produce fuel around Mars itself, even ignoring Zubrin’s proposal for producing fuel on the Martian surface.

This plethora of studies and analyses had done nothing, however, to help the agency actually choose an architecture and an approach for Artemis, let alone Ares. Instead, they left the agency struggling to choose between the advantages and disadvantages of each proposal. Should it opt for an architecture minimizing ongoing operational costs, to protect the program as its objectives were achieved, or one that minimized development costs, increasing the likelihood that it would survive any future political struggles to reach those objectives? How much should it involve international partners, including the unknown possibilities of Russia, China, and India? What balance between technical risk and possible performance should it take? Rather than provide it with the information needed to make informed decisions in all of these areas to present to the Administration and to Congress, the studies were instead paralyzing NASA with an excess of attractive options, forcing even more analysis to try to narrow down its choices even further, all the while accomplishing little of real import.

Falling under the goals of all three manned program offices, and thus answering to all while directed by none, the Advanced Crew Vehicle (ACV) program was a microcosm of Constellation’s problems. Originally conceived during the late 80s as a program to develop a next-gen crew capsule to finally replace the venerable Apollo with something more capable and modern, ACV was incredibly open in scope, and in the flush of money after Bush’s incorporation of the existing conceptual research into Constellation the number of contractors and NASA engineers involved had exploded. Almost every major US contractor had at least one proposal, while large ones like Lockheed and Boeing had several parallel programs. Other concepts and studies were being added by NASA centers, research universities, and even small startup companies. Vehicles proposed ranged from scaled-up capsules resembling Apollo or Minotaur, (aiming to include more volume and equipment into a returnable and reusable core capsule) to more exotic aeromanuevering configurations, including spaceplanes, lifting bodies, biconic capsules, and others. A third camp advocated for stripped-down vehicles intended to reduce costs per flight by allowing crew rotations in tighter conditions aboard commercial launchers like Lockheed Titans, McDonell Deltas, or even (in the smallest proposals) ALS Carracks. Most designs aimed at switching to land-landing, with precision touchdowns of one form or another, and many also called for at least some degree of reusability. However, the needs of the ongoing Freedom program, the near-term Artemis, and the longer-term Ares program offices clashed as to what the ACV was expected to do, when, for how long, and with what crew and cargo aboard, with almost no configuration able to answer every goal. Moreover, few of the designs were expected to be able to enter service before the year 2000 and, in some cases, even later. Thus, the Gore-Davis report highlighted ACV as a prime target of budget reductions. After all, with Apollo doing such yeoman’s duty for Freedom, and with such versatility, why bother with billions of dollars on a replacement that, although cheaper over an extended planning period stretching into the 2010s, would be more expensive in the next decade, while Freedom and Artemis were actually taking place and while Gore was in office? Instead of followup studies or hardware contracts, most of the original partners found their funding eliminated, while ACV was folded down to a smaller office looking exclusively at potential development of Apollo to meet current and near-future needs.

The same pattern was repeated throughout Constellation’s offices--while Freedom’s more tangible and largely underway efforts escaped serious cuts, Ares was gutted--manned Mars was off the table, as were more expensive robotic precursors like a Mars sample return mission. The Mars Traverse Rovers were to remain the main focus, plus some of the more budget-friendly planetary science missions like the international collaboration on Fobos Together. Indeed, the Ares Office was so stripped that the remaining manned planning was mostly folded in with long-term planning in the Artemis office, which was in turn renamed as simply the Exploration Office, though the lunar program itself would retain the Artemis name. The unmanned operations of what had been Ares were instead spun off into the arms of the Planetary Science Directorate. While the Artemis-cum-Exploration Office made off much better than Ares, it still saw a serious cutback in the scope of studies approved. The message was clear--Gore wanted to see more progress made considering the amount of money and time that had already been spent. Most importantly, Gore wanted the critical mode decision made, settling the question of how Artemis would go to the moon. While no Kennedy-esque deadline had been set for Artemis, Gore made it known through Davis that a goal of “before 1999” (and the 30th anniversary of Apollo 11’s landing) would be prefered--and that meant moving now. Gore also wanted to see more of the United States’ allies in space brought onboard in more meaningful roles--both as a way of putting his co-operative vision for space exploration into practice and as a way of spreading the costs of precursors and communications elements to reduce the program’s budget requirements--and Lloyd Davis would run the Exploration office ragged, with a narrow focus on the initial sorties: either to see the mission done or shown as impossible--and Davis knew it wasn’t impossible.

The money saved on Ares and Artemis research wasn’t cut from NASA’s budget entirely, though. Some was lumped into Artemis’ operational budget, aiming to help the Herculean task of moving the scheduled landing to meet the 1999 goal, pushing the program off its comfortable status quo of building castles (and moon bases) in the sky and towards results. However, other elements went to another of Gore’s pet projects. Given the flowering of the commercial space market in the 80s, Gore found the role of NASA in enforcing single-source monopolies with the Multibody, Delta, Apollo, and more to be contrary to what NASA’s goals for the US spaceflight industry ought to be in his mind--that instead of monopolism, NASA should be working to develop technologies to foster innovation in the commercial space field. The new Technology Development Incubation program was almost hypocritical--the same kind of kaleidoscopic array of contracts that had made up Ares and Artemis’ analysis paralysis, distinguished only by that most of them had near-term deliverables. Aimed at fostering innovations in the US launch market, the programs included contracts for all sort of projects, from advanced hydrogen/oxygen engines including the altitude-adjusting aerospike so fondly regarded by SSTO advocates to US-built high-pressure staged-combustion kerosene/LOX engines similar to Russian designs, from advanced reusable TPS to “dumb” mass-produced expendable stages using composite tanks, and from ion-drive tugs for reusable trips from geosynchronous orbit to low-Earth orbit and back in order to reduce the payload required for GEO satellites to new examination of storable hypergolic fuels like hydrogen peroxide/kerosene for use on spacecraft and satellites. The program was to culminate in the development of a testbed vehicle to put into effect the best concepts in reusability for a near-space suborbital single-stage demonstrator.

Finally, Gore proposed a new international initiative, extending the international aspects of Freedom’s operations to new potential partners--the Russians. Since the first launches of Skylab and Salyuts, Russian and American stations had shared the skies. Now Gore proposed that in a leadup to co-operation in more distant missions, Russian cosmonauts and American astronauts should conduct exchange missions, like the ASTP I and II flights. Unlike the earlier missions, though, these would be exchanges, not just meetings in space. American astronauts would travel to Mir via Baikonur-launched TKS spending time participating in operations aboard the station for a full rotation, while Russian cosmonauts would have the chance to fly aboard Apollo and do the same aboard Freedom. It was intended as a way of comparing operational practices, and of laying the groundwork for more extensive peaceful co-operation with the thawing of the Cold War--both in orbit and on the ground. More cynically, it was also a way of funneling US money into supporting the Russian program, preventing Russian rocket engineers and technicians from being headhunted by rogue states to build missiles that might pose a threat to the United States. In the end, while Gore’s eye for the practical cut ambition in some areas of the long-term space program, he hoped that by focusing on the near-term like Artemis, Freedom, the commercial space market, and co-operative missions he could enable the kind of peaceful, US-led joint future he envisioned in space.
 
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So just how many different plans did NASA have with respects to their Manned Space Programme at the time of Schmidt's resignation? 40? 50? 712?

And I see a bit of Angela Merkel here with Gore and Davis. Very dull, wooden, and boring. But very effective in what they do best. I wonder just how long this will hold out for.

But in these leaner 1990's, and with a hostile Republican Congress likely in the coming years, I don't see that 1999 Target Date as being achievable. Maybe some point in the 2000's it can happen, with enough drive and a successor President who'll be willing to tackle the last hurdles.

And I notice that the potential replacements for Apollo are being shelved, again IIRC. A serious case of "If not broke, don't fix" seems to be in effect here, though money is certainly the primary reason.

Meaning that Apollo looks to be redesigned into the role it was originally redesigned for. Cislunar Flights. A busy little craft ain't it? Coming and going like that all the time. :p:p
 
And I notice that the potential replacements for Apollo are being shelved, again IIRC. A serious case of "If not broke, don't fix" seems to be in effect here, though money is certainly the primary reason.

Meaning that Apollo looks to be redesigned into the role it was originally redesigned for. Cislunar Flights. A busy little craft ain't it? Coming and going like that all the time. :p:p

I think the Apollo spacecraft is becoming the US version in this timeline of the Soyuz spacecraft. The Soyuz space craft has been in service since 1967 with continious updates.

However one thing I wonder are the Apollo Command Modules re-used after a space flight? I know historically they where not and they have all wound up in missions. However considering the number of missions up and down to the space stations over the years was a decision made to save some money by re-using the Command modules?
 
I think the Apollo spacecraft is becoming the US version in this timeline of the Soyuz spacecraft. The Soyuz space craft has been in service since 1967 with continious updates.

However one thing I wonder are the Apollo Command Modules re-used after a space flight? I know historically they where not and they have all wound up in missions. However considering the number of missions up and down to the space stations over the years was a decision made to save some money by re-using the Command modules?

They have studied the possibility; indeed, the ACV program we mentioned in this update was started (prior to the beginning of Constellation) as an effort to replace the Block III+/Block IV Apollo with something reusable to lower ongoing operational costs. Thus the spaceplanes, lifting bodies, biconics, etc.

However, they haven't had the funding to actually modify the CMs for reuse, and as they are still recovered by splashdowns salt water intrusion and corrosion still pose major barriers to cost-effectively reusing Apollo CMs.

And, indeed, the Apollo is basically an American Soyuz ITTL.
 
They have studied the possibility; indeed, the ACV program we mentioned in this update was started (prior to the beginning of Constellation) as an effort to replace the Block III+/Block IV Apollo with something reusable to lower ongoing operational costs. Thus the spaceplanes, lifting bodies, biconics, etc.

However, they haven't had the funding to actually modify the CMs for reuse, and as they are still recovered by splashdowns salt water intrusion and corrosion still pose major barriers to cost-effectively reusing Apollo CMs.

And, indeed, the Apollo is basically an American Soyuz ITTL.

I was more thinking along the lines of the SID 66-1750 Renovated Command Module Laboratory and Renovated Command Module Study from November 1966. Even with salt water intrusion and complete re-furbishment the report found a refurbished Command Module was 64% the cost of a new one. Have you looked at this report? I assume that in our Time Line that this wasn't pursued more because most of the Apollo program Command Modules where sent to the moon (Who want's to go to the moon in a re-furbished Command Module). Also each of the Command Modules would have historical value. However when you think of the shear amount of Space-Lab missions for instance do you need to save the Command Module from Space-lab mission 18 for instance and put it in a museum. In the report consideration was given to re-using Command Modules on the top of a stock in Low-Earth orbit or modyfing them to some type of science module. However this type of activity got cut off in or timeline with the de-funding of most of the Apollo Application program and concentration on the shuttle. However this doesn't seem to happen in the Eyes Turned skywards.
 
I'm rather skeptical that the changes we have seen in the U.S. (and other) space programs would have such a big butterfly as putting Gore (a stiff candidate whose conservatism struggled to appeal to primary constituencies in 1988/92, and whose bland persona would not have caught fire in a general election in the same way that Clinton's did) into office in 1993 rather than Clinton - and I'm appalled at the idea of Ann Richards within 50 million light years of the Oval Office - but some of these other developments seem plausible.

For one: Ditching the ACV for more incremental development of Apollo CSM seems inevitable, thanks to budget concerns. That's very much of the Eyes Turned Skywards arc - stay focused on heritage architecture, making gradual refinements, rather than an entirely new set (expensive) hardware. The two significant changes that would be desirable would be 1) a land landing capability and 2) more radiation shielding. But how expensive would that be? Push comes to shove, I would focus on the radiation shielding, which, NASA has learned by the 90's, is mission critical for long-duration missions outside the Van Allen Belts. Beyond that, it's likely to be just more of the same, incremental upgrades to avionics and materials.

For another: The non-feasibility of a serious Mars program. Too expensive, too risky at this juncture; NASA is already neck deep with Freedom and the lunar return. I think this was inevitable regardless of who was elected in 1992.

For a third: Astronaut exchange programs between Mir and Freedom. This is an easy layup, an obvious and relatively easy form of cooperation with Yeltsin's Russia that requires very little funding. It doesn't do much for ROSCOSMOS's bottom line, but it gives it a little more respectability, and helps warm relations with Moscow a little.
 
...Ditching the ACV for more incremental development of Apollo CSM seems inevitable, thanks to budget concerns. That's very much of the Eyes Turned Skywards arc - stay focused on heritage architecture, making gradual refinements, rather than an entirely new set (expensive) hardware. The two significant changes that would be desirable would be 1) a land landing capability and 2) more radiation shielding. But how expensive would that be? Push comes to shove, I would focus on the radiation shielding, which, NASA has learned by the 90's, is mission critical for long-duration missions outside the Van Allen Belts. Beyond that, it's likely to be just more of the same, incremental upgrades to avionics and materials....

From our prior discussions, serious improvements in radiation shielding against GCRs seems like a tough fight--much easier to do some half-assed approach to land recovery (like say, replacing the parachutes with a Rogallo wing a la the older Gemini proposal).

From what has been said before, there are basically two spectra of radiation to protect against--clouds of dense solar wind particles put out by solar flares, and GCRs. The Earth's magnetic field has been protecting the orbital missions from the former; it is unclear to me just how much difference the magnetic field makes to GCRs (none at all to the neutral particles of course, but I think the dangerous stuff is mostly energetic atomic nuclei, going down to protons, and electrons aka "beta particles"; it seems likely to me the magnetic field would attenuate these at least somewhat, no matter how energetic they are). Leaving the protection of the field and passing through the Van Allen belts, I gather that protection from the relatively low-energy but high flux sporadic solar flare related events is perhaps attainable at some sacrifice in payload--and indeed many items useful for shielding also serve other useful purposes on the mission, so there is a certain helpful synergy that can reward clever planning there. However the notion that the consumables will form a good part of the shielding always seems a bit problematic to me--that's fine early in the mission, but what happens as consumables are, um, consumed?

The mission starts with them packed in bags of water and freeze-dried food I guess, but it finishes either with them unprotected--or packed in, um, waste materials!:eek: Well, that latter is kind of gross, but if it works, they shouldn't recoil from it--after all, it shouldn't stink up the cabin...:rolleyes:

As I understand it, the GCR flux rate is not as high as solar flare event radiation, but since each particle is extremely energetic the energy flux is greater than the particle flux would suggest--and there are just two strategies here. One is to minimize interaction by minimizing the amount of material, particularly high-atomic-weight material, for them to interact with. If an energetic GCR particle interacts with high mass nuclei, it will tend to produce substantial secondary radiation. So we don't want lead shielding--we want the same stuff that is effective against flare events, water and the like, plastics replacing metals wherever we can. The extra shielding we want in case of solar flare does less harm than good, but it is only a token, quite inadequate step toward strategy II--which is to bundle the habitable zone of the ship in plenty of low-atomic-weight shielding--water and liquid hydrogen fuel being two almost ideal substances--to seriously attenuate the GCRs. How much is enough? Well, Earth's atmosphere interposes ten metric tons of nitrogen and oxygen between us and space radiation--I don't know how much of a dent the magnetic field makes in the GCR flux before it reaches the atmosphere. One would suppose ten tonnes of water would do the job nicely. And perhaps we can get away with less, figuring that people often live pretty high up, in the Peruvian altaplano and Tibet, and we might get away with 5 meters or so of water.

But that amount of shielding is completely out of bounds here; it involves building something literally akin to Battlestar Galactica. It skews the cost-effectiveness curve toward much bigger ships and missions, a thousand times or so bigger than an Apollo, and even so such big ships would be mostly masses of water shielding with a few percent of other mass along for the ride!

In the timeline's science fiction movies they ignore the whole shielding question (or the very futuristic ones can assume some kind of handwavium force field). But Gore's lean and focused Apollo-based deep space missions must resolve to go without any effective GCR shielding to speak of, relying instead on light design to minimize secondary radiation and quick trip times to minimize time of exposure. Given that there are warnings the Sun puts out of imminent major flare events, they might do better even to avoid too much shielding against those contingencies and simply not send missions when a flare is forecast.

The jury is still out OTL on just how much harm a given amount of GCR exposure causes--what is known since the Apollo lunar missions is that there is a lot of it.

If there winds up being a lot of traffic to Lunar space, I would suggest making a well-shielded space station in a transfer orbit that takes it repeatedly from LEO to the Lunar vicinity. Such Cyclers don't really help with the energetics of transferring mass from one body to another--even though the Cycler would be close to Earth as measured in kilometers of radius, it would be zipping by at nearly 40 percent greater speeds than a circular orbit at its perigee would have--rendezvousing with it involves pretty much the same delta-V as simply launching the ship directly to the Moon, and the same applies in close Lunar space--leaving the Cycler and going into a Lunar orbit or to a Lagrange point or landing on the surface again will require similar propellant loads to just doing it independently. The only advantage the Cycler would supply would be infrastructure aboard it might cut down on auxiliary mass the mission has to haul to the destination. And if the Cycler were indeed protected in a thick shell of water, then a number of days of GCR exposure will be spared the travelers. If they go down to the Moon surface, they can dig in there and be protected by thick regolith roofs, not to mention being half shielded by the Moon itself. Perhaps instead of having lots of separate stations, at L2 and whatnot, we make the Cycler, or a suite of them, the space stations--they won't be near the Moon constantly, but they will be back reliably.

But such a Cycler would indeed be a gigantic project, justified only if it is established that there will be a lot of human beings routinely living in deep space (if only Lunar, initially) and traveling back and forth between Luna and Earth.

Barring some ASB event that causes a many-orders-of-magnitude increase in interest in manned space, it's off the table for the 1990s anyway.

I'm guessing that the Apollo-derived craft that make Lunar journeys in the '90s will not be much better shielded than the 1960s Apollos, and either manned missions will be kept to short durations--or if a few longer ones are planned, one of their purposes will be precisely to get data on how human astronauts handle the GCR flux over longer periods.
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I've got a vague suggestion for a class of mission by the way. While actual planning to go to Mars is off the table, Lunar operations are not. Of what use is the Moon? Well, one thing that is nice about it if one is a radio astronomer is that it blocks the noise of human-generated radio signals off on the far side. What if an unmanned suite of successively landed radio antenna units were to be placed in a suitably sized crater on the far side, networked together virtually to form a Very Large Array, one that could gradually become denser as the number of individual stations landed and hooked up in the crater increases. And the array elements relay their observations to relays on the rim of the crater that send them to a repeater that uplinks the data to some satellite relay--say one in a tight halo orbit around L2?

So the primary mission is to do radio astronomy science, but it provides a useful challenge to NASA. Can the whole operation be handled remotely, by nothing but robots on the Farside? Or will a human crew, present at least sporadically, at the L2 relay be valuable? If so, the project would test out the notion of ferry flights to L2, and making a habitable station way out there. It also advances the art of tele-guided semiautonomous unmanned surface operations.

Alternatively the radio telescope can be set up at L2 itself; I am not sure but I believe the Moon will shield it from Earth, if not 100 percent of the time than most of the time anyway.
 
From what has been said before, there are basically two spectra of radiation to protect against--clouds of dense solar wind particles put out by solar flares, and GCRs. The Earth's magnetic field has been protecting the orbital missions from the former; it is unclear to me just how much difference the magnetic field makes to GCRs (none at all to the neutral particles of course, but I think the dangerous stuff is mostly energetic atomic nuclei, going down to protons, and electrons aka "beta particles"; it seems likely to me the magnetic field would attenuate these at least somewhat, no matter how energetic they are).

I seem to remember reading something recently about how much the Sun’s magnetosphere protects against GCRs, to the point where the radiation environment in interplanetary space would actually be safest during a solar max, as that’s when the solar magnetosphere is strongest... though even then they’d still be pretty lethal, not to mention the elevated risk of the Sun itself frying you with a flare, of course :(

If there winds up being a lot of traffic to Lunar space, I would suggest making a well-shielded space station in a transfer orbit that takes it repeatedly from LEO to the Lunar vicinity.

Interesting idea, but I wonder if a cycler orbit could reduce radiation flux, but increase the overall dosage due to greater exposure time. I'm not an expert, and haven't spent long enough Googling to pretend to be one ;) but Wiki says orbits are typically 9-14 days, compared to just 3 days each way for Apollo. There'll obviously be a cut-off point where the increased shielding mass starts to pay off compared to the shorter transit time, but I'll leave it to someone else to work out where that will be :confused:

I'm guessing that the Apollo-derived craft that make Lunar journeys in the '90s will not be much better shielded than the 1960s Apollos, and either manned missions will be kept to short durations--or if a few longer ones are planned, one of their purposes will be precisely to get data on how human astronauts handle the GCR flux over longer periods.

I suspect you’re right. With Congress and the President authorising only sortie missions, they’ll take the Apollo approach of making quick dashes and crossing their fingers, plus probably limiting each astronaut to a maximum of one or two missions each to reduce lifetime exposure. (Tough call if you’re an astronaut – you want to go to the Moon now, once, then we ground you? Or do you want to fly long duration on Freedom a few times – but then forget the Moon? ) As you pointed out, if they do eventually get to build lunar bases these can be shielded with regolith, and the transit times will still be short enough that NASA will probably be okay with playing the odds. At least until some poor crew gets fried in transit and all of the internal studies, contractor memos and Congressional aide queries come out pointing out how obviously this is far too big a risk to be running.
 
Hello Shevek,

But such a Cycler would indeed be a gigantic project, justified only if it is established that there will be a lot of human beings routinely living in deep space (if only Lunar, initially) and traveling back and forth between Luna and Earth.

Barring some ASB event that causes a many-orders-of-magnitude increase in interest in manned space, it's off the table for the 1990s anyway.

I'm guessing that the Apollo-derived craft that make Lunar journeys in the '90s will not be much better shielded than the 1960s Apollos, and either manned missions will be kept to short durations--or if a few longer ones are planned, one of their purposes will be precisely to get data on how human astronauts handle the GCR flux over longer periods.

Given the Gore Administration's (which I think would have been shared by the Clinton Administration anyway) desire for speed and cost effectiveness, I tend to agree: the first phase will be just an updated Apollo, not all that different from Old Apollo in general configuration, just with slightly larger crew, larger LM, somewhat longer stay times, better avionics and materials, better suits, but otherwise something very, very recognizable to Wehrner von Braun.

I recognize up front that there's little you can do about the radiation problem with an Apollo CM or whatever LM they end up developing. If you're serious about this problem, a separate, well protected module or craft is necessary, whether you do that through a cycler or some other module or lunar space station (for space), or an underground base structure (for lunar surface). Both possibilities are further down the road.

Still, NASA will be giving more thought to this concern in the 90's than it did in the 60's. It may work to limit lunar stays to no more than a couple weeks, subject to evaluation of exposures, and careful scheduling of lunar sorties around peak flare periods; the optimistic plans that NASA so freely generated for LESA and ALSS would get a more skeptical look now in view of these concerns. Long-term lunar stays are going to require some protection, whether in lunar orbit or Lagrange points, or buried structures on the Moon.
 
Given the Gore Administration's (which I think would have been shared by the Clinton Administration anyway) desire for speed and cost effectiveness, I tend to agree: the first phase will be just an updated Apollo, not all that different from Old Apollo in general configuration, just with slightly larger crew, larger LM, somewhat longer stay times, better avionics and materials, better suits, but otherwise something very, very recognizable to Wehrner von Braun.

It certainly looks that way. Though I suspect they'll be using a lot of the material and equipment improvements - read, reduced mass - to have more redundancy in the various systems, which seems about right for a more Safety-conscious NASA.


Still, NASA will be giving more thought to this concern in the 90's than it did in the 60's. It may work to limit lunar stays to no more than a couple weeks, subject to evaluation of exposures, and careful scheduling of lunar sorties around peak flare periods; the optimistic plans that NASA so freely generated for LESA and ALSS would get a more skeptical look now in view of these concerns. Long-term lunar stays are going to require some protection, whether in lunar orbit or Lagrange points, or buried structures on the Moon.

CBR concerns would dictate that all the crew go onto the Lunar Surface, with the shortest practical Cislunar flight time possible to keep such doses to a minimum, which NASA can also pass off as having all the crew on the Lunar Surface doing their work there. Said improved avionics and shortish stay time being the official reason as to why they can afford to leave the Orbiter unmanned for a time.

But the ALSS and LESA plans are pretty much dead in the water. Especially when you consider that the Saturn V has been out of production since 1968 - and they did kinda need that for the Direct Profile they used with the bases themselves.
 
It certainly looks that way. Though I suspect they'll be using a lot of the material and equipment improvements - read, reduced mass - to have more redundancy in the various systems, which seems about right for a more Safety-conscious NASA.

Oh, I agree. And I think that's precisely how NASA would use the weight savings. The risks it ran in 1968-1972 won't be acceptable in the 1990's and 2000's. They'll also want more margin in consumables.

CBR concerns would dictate that all the crew go onto the Lunar Surface, with the shortest practical Cislunar flight time possible to keep such doses to a minimum, which NASA can also pass off as having all the crew on the Lunar Surface doing their work there. Said improved avionics and shortish stay time being the official reason as to why they can afford to leave the Orbiter unmanned for a time.

But the ALSS and LESA plans are pretty much dead in the water. Especially when you consider that the Saturn V has been out of production since 1968 - and they did kinda need that for the Direct Profile they used with the bases themselves.

I don't have time to look over the specs, but doesn't Saturn Multibody H03 have a largely similar lift capacity - i.e., that it has enough TLI throw mass to put something on the order of a LESA lunar base module onto the lunar surface?

Otherwise, I agree with the rest: I don't doubt that what our ETS authors have in mind is this kind of profile - short (3 day or so) transit times, a 4 man crew that all goes to the surface, and sorties that last something like two weeks or so, tops, until they're ready to set up some kind of base structure, even if only man-tended.
 
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