Extra Carriers at the Battle of Midway

kclcmdr

Extra Carriers at the Battle of Midway

What if the Battle of The Coral Sea didn't happen and instead the two Imperial Japanese Carriers are transferred to the Invasion of Midway Island...??
And likewise the one American Carrier that was sunk in OTL is available for duty on June 1942?

Here would be the new OOB for the two Opposing Carrier Groups at the Battle for Midway Is.

===========================Imperial Japanese Naval forces appearing near Midway Is. ATL

First Carrier Striking Force (First Air Fleet) - Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo
1st Carrier Division: -- 2 BBs, 2 CAs, 1 CL, 11 DDs
Akagi - Captain Aoki
Fighters ---- 19 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 18 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 18 B5N2 Kates
Kaga -- Captain Okada
Fighters ---- 21 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 18 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 27 B5N2 Kates
Second Carrier Striking Force
Hiryu - Captain Kaku
Fighters ---- 21 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 18 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 18 B5N2 Kates
Soryu - Captain Yanagimoto
Fighters ---- 21 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 18 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 18 B5N2 Kates
Fifth Carrier Division: -- 2 CAs, 6 DDs
Shokaku - Captain Takagi
Fighters ---- 21 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 20 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 19 B5N2 Kates
Zuikaku - Captain Hara
Fighters ---- 25 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 22 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ---- 19 B5N2 Kates

Total
Fighters ----128 A6M2 Zekes == Dive Bomber ----114 D3A1 Vals == Torpedo Bomber ----119 B5N2 Kates

IJN Fleet Strength at around Midway Is.
6 CVs ; 2 BBs ; 4 CAs ; 17 DDs
IJN Air Strength
128 Zekes ; 114 Vals ; 119 Kates

===========================American Naval forces appearing near Midway Is.

Task Force 17 -- V.Adm. Fletcher -- 8 CAs, 11 DDs
Yorktown --- R.Adm. Fitch
Fighters ----- 17 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 35 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 13 TBD Devastators
Lexington --- Captain Sherman
Fighters ----- 21 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 35 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 12 TBD Devastators
Task Force 16 -- R.Adm. Spruance -- 6 CAs, 09 DDs
Enterprise -- Capt Murray
Fighters ----- 27 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 33 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 14 TBD Devastators
Hornet -- Capt Mitscher
Fighters ----- 27 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 34 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 15 TBD Devastators
Midway Air Garrison
Fighters ----- 07 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 27 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ----

Fighters ----- 21 F2A Buffalos == Dive Bomber ---- 17 SB2U Vindicator=== Torpedo Bomber ---- 06 TBF Avengers

Total
Fighters ----- 99 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ----164 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 54 TBD Devastators
Fighters ----- 21 F2A Buffalos == Dive Bomber ---- 17 SB2U Vindicator=== Torpedo Bomber ---- 06 TBF Avengers
Overall Total-120 All Types ===== Dive Bombers ---191 All Types ======== Torpedo Bombers --- 60 All Types

31 PBY Catalinas ; 4 B-26 Marauder twin-engine medium Bombers ; 17 B-17 Flying Fortress heavy Bombers

USN Fleet Strength at around Midway Is.
4 CVs ; 14 CAs ; 20 DDs
Air Assets Strength at around Midway Is.
120 Fighters ; 191 Dive Bombers ; 60 Torpedo Bombers ; 31 PBYs ; 4 Medium Bombers ; 17 Heavy Bombers

**

As a special condition ; The USS CV Saratoga has been ordered out to sea towards Midway Is. a week earlier upon the decryption of the transferring of the two IJN Carriers from the aborted Coral Sea Ops and arrives on station with her sister carriers...
She is designated TF 18 under the command of Captain DeWitt Ramsey

Task Force 18 -- 3 CAs, 7 DDs
Saratoga --- Captain Ramsey
Fighters ----- 36 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ---- 45 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 10 TBD Devastators

Augmented Strenth by One Extra Carrier TF
Overall Total
Fighters -----135 F4F Wildcats == Dive Bomber ----209 SBD Dauntless ==== Torpedo Bomber ---- 64 TBD Devastators
Fighters ----- 21 F2A Buffalos == Dive Bomber ---- 17 SB2U Vindicator=== Torpedo Bomber ---- 06 TBF Avengers
Overall Total-156 All Types ===== Dive Bombers ---226 All Types ======== Torpedo Bombers --- 70 All Types
31 PBY Catalinas ; 4 B-26 Marauder twin-engine medium Bombers ; 17 B-17 Flying Fortress heavy Bombers

Augmented Air Assets Strength at around Midway Is.
156 Fighters ; 226 Dive Bombers ; 70 Torpedo Bombers ; 31 PBYs ; 4 Medium Bombers ; 17 Heavy Bombers
Augmented USN Fleet Strength at around Midway Is.
5 CVs ; 17 CAs ; 27 DDs

=====================

==Storyline==

By an act of fate, American PBYs at the extreme range of their run in the Coral Sea just happen to spot the IJN Carrier Striking Force of Vice Admiral Takeo Takagi's Carrier Division Five and reports back to USN Intel forces on the happenstance spotting...
Likewise, An American Submarine on Patrol likewise just happen to spot the tailend of the Tulagi Invasion Group of Rear Admiral Kiyohide Shima's Taskforce and puts two torpedoes into the IJN Transport Azumasan Maru...

Imperial Japanese Navy and Army Radio Intercept Stations picks up the extra radio chatter from their American Counterparts and reports the activities to Admiral Yamamoto's Intel Officer.

V.Adm. Takagi of Carrier Force Five reports back to Headquarters that their position has been spotted by American PBY Spotter planes and are launching their CAPs for any incoming Allied Airstrikes...
R.Adm. Shima likewise reports that an Allied Submarine as just torpedo one of his transports and is currently hunting it down and is waiting for orders...

Admiral Yamamoto, upon hearing of these two incidents and the increased Radio Chatter that IJA and IJN radio monitoring units are receiving from preceived American Air and Naval assets, orders Task Force MO to cancel the operation and withdraw without any further loss of ships since the Allies have found their Taskforces..

Admiral Yamamoto then orders Carrier Division 5 and its two Carriers IJN Shokaku and Zuikaku back to home waters for reassignment for Operation MI against American Held Midway Island...

American Intel have noticed the increased radio chatter and have likewise intercepted and decrypted the messages of the reassignment of the two additional IJN carriers from the cancelled Ops MI towards implementing Operation MO...

This increases the suspicions of the American Intel Group and Admiral Nimitz that Operation MO is getting two more carriers and the Admiral orders V.Adm. Fletcher to move TF 17 back to Pearl ...

This is confirmed when American Intel sends a mailed order for Midway Island to send a fake message from Midway Is. that their water condensation unit is broken and an intercepted IJN message is decrypted by their codebreakers that mentions that MO has a broken water unit...

If everything is held constant...
What can Adm. Nagumo do with two additional Carriers in his air asset arsenal..

Likewise, what can R.Adm. Fletcher do with two Carriers that one was sunk and the other damaged...?

==End of Storyline==

===

What can Adm. Nagumo do different with his fleet and air assets augmented..


IJN Fleet Strength at around Midway Is.
6 CVs ; 2 BBs ; 4 CAs ; 17 DDs
IJN Air Strength
128 Zekes ; 114 Vals ; 119 Kates

Likewise, what can Adm. Fletcher do with his own fleet and air assets augmented...?

Augmented Air Assets Strength at around Midway Is.
156 Fighters ; 226 Dive Bombers ; 70 Torpedo Bombers ; 31 PBYs ; 4 Medium Bombers ; 17 Heavy Bombers
Augmented USN Fleet Strength at around Midway Is.
5 CVs ; 17 CAs ; 27 DDs


Will history repeat itself if Nagumo follows his standard military Method of Operation as he had planned in OTL or will the extra air assets allow him to totally plaster Midway Is. and allow him to launch additional strikes from the ZuiKaku and ShoKaku..??

Will Fletcher be able to take advantage of the extra flattop like the Lexington or even the Saratoga...?

Six Imperial Japanese Carriers vs Five American Carriers plus Midway Is.

Whom has the edge...?
 

seyak

NHBL said:
Yorktown is undamaged--that helps her effectiveness...
Click to expand...

True - but then again missing the combat experience from Coral Sea has the reverse effect, especially when considering pilots and damage control. Yorktown was the only US carrier in Midway that managed to create a coordinated strike against the japanese carriers and send it to the right direction, would this be the case here? (Yes, reduced distance to the enemy at the time of Yorktown plane launch was also a factor)
 

kclcmdr

Both sides will indeed be not aware of the dangers of having broken and leaking fuel lines will be to damaged Carriers that suffer internal explosions that ignites the vaporized fuel.....

Whomever has the best Damage Control teams and the better facilities and training to combat and minimize the heavy damage from an enemy air strike will undoubtedly gain an edge...

Like JN1 mentioned whomever strikes the carriers first will have the advantage..

If Adm. Nagumo does what he did in the OTL and likewise does in ATL and does a maximum effort to blast Midway Is. and its facilities and Midway Is. has already launch its birds into the air at Dawn Early Twilight will start the ball rolling...

Whether Nagumo will kept some ACs in reserve at the ready in the hangers like he did in OTL or order one or two of his CVs to not launch and just have their ACs prepare for any eventualities...
That is up to conjecture...

Anybody know what Nagumo's Military Method of Operation would have been..?

Would he do just like he did at Pearl Harbour and likewise what he did in OTL Midway??
 
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CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
kclcmdr said:
Both sides will indeed be not aware of the dangers of having broken and leaking fuel lines will be to damaged Carriers that suffer internal explosions that ignites the vaporized fuel.....

Whomever has the best Damage Control teams and the better facilities and training to combat and minimize the heavy damage from an enemy air strike will undoubtedly gain an edge...

Like JN1 mentioned whomever strikes the carriers first will have the advantage..

If Adm. Nagumo does what he did in the OTL and likewise does in ATL and does a maximum effort to blast Midway Is. and its facilities and Midway Is. has already launch its birds into the air at Dawn Early Twilight will start the ball rolling...

Whether Nagumo will kept some ACs in reserve at the ready in the hangers like he did in OTL or order one or two of his CVs to not launch and just have their ACs prepare for any eventualities...
That is up to conjecture...

Anybody know what Nagumo's Military Method of Operation would have been..?

Would he do just like he did at Pearl Harbour and likewise what he did in OTL Midway??
Click to expand...


The U.S. did know of the danger of leaking fuel. The Lexington was an accident plain & simple, one that involved the main AvGas storage tanks, not the feeder system (Yorktown and the Lex had their lines full of CO2 at Coral Sea). The Japanese didn't use the same system.


One of the main questions of this scenario, which is interesting, BTW, and not one I've seen before, is HOW the two sides would deploy.

The Japanese were under the impression, incorrectly, that the USN deployed its carriers in a single large formation when operating multiple decks. This was based on a single photo taken during a FleetEx that was for publicity purposes. The IJN played around with the system and decided it had considerable merit in terms of CAP & escort utilization, mutual support, and concentration of striking power. The USN, at the time of Midway, had not actually adopted the mass formation, and wouldn't until 1944 when the number of carriers available more or less required it.

This being the case, it is almost certain that the Japanese would have had all their decks in a single formation, with between 6,000 and 8,000 meters spacing. This was the set-up used during the Pearl Harbor attack and in the IO Raid as well as at OTL Midway. This meant detection of one carrier gave you the whole force (Hiryu survived the first strike IOTL thanks to a friendly rain squall that failed to hide the Soryu, which was only about 3,500 meters ahead and slightly to starboard of Hiryu, having lost station in the original diamond formation during evasive maneuvers over the course of the morning's air attacks).

The U.S. would, conversely, be operating in one or two ship TF, mainly depending on available escort assets with spacing of up to 40 miles between formations. (IOTL this is why the Tone & Chikuma float planes both missed TF 17 while finding TF 16; the Japanese only learned that there were three carriers in the region through interrogation of captured USN aircrew who were subsequently executed.) This means the USN has at least three, maybe four (depending if the Saratoga is thrown into the Mix) separate formations within range of mutual CAP support and TBS range but out of easy detection range of each other. It is also likely that Lexington would have been carrying a full complement of at least 27, if not 36 Wildcats (the smaller number on had at Coral Sea was due to aircraft availability, not operation doctrine).

The U.S. carriers were quite robust in terms of handling bomb damage, although considerably weaker in torpedo protection (this was especially the case of the Yorktown/Wasp design, all of which shook of multiple bomb strikes, but, with the exception of the Enterprise, succumbed to torpedo attacks) while most of the Japanese carriers were far less durable (Zuikaku was a notable exception, while her sister Shokaku was not far behind) thanks to a number of design decisions, all of which made sense individually, but overall resulted in a series of remarkably hazardous designs.

The USN had a much better AAA defensive scheme and a better CAP set up (regarding fighters, the idea of using SBD as "auxiliary fighters" against torpedo planes was proved to be less than ideal) and of course, the American aircraft are far more survivable.

It would make for an interesting match.
 

zert

Well as others have said, a VERY interesting scenario. I am not sure how it may play out, but with some more birds in the air, I would hope that the US would be able to get in some golden hits and take out the Nippon forces.
 

Matt Wiser

There's a naval wargame called either Command at Sea or Command Decision (it's been years since I've seen the game in a store), put out by the same company that does the Harpoon4 counter-based game. In their module for the first year of the Pacific War, they do have not only the "classic" Midway scenario, but alternates, where Carrier Division 5 (RADM Chuichi "King Kong" Hara) is available to the Japanese, and Saratoga, and if she survives Coral Sea, Lexington for the USN.

Carrier Division 1 was under Nagumo's personal command, while CarDiv 2 was under RADM Tamon Yamaguchi, a firebrand who was not only hoping to succeed Nagumo as commander of Kido Butai, but was touted as Yamamoto's successor as CINC-Combined Fleet.
 

usertron2020

Donor
So much depends on not just who hits who first, but who FINDS who first. After all, the USN knew Nagumo was out there. Nagumo's intelligence told him he more or less had a free shot at Midway, with the US carriers in Hawaii.(1)

The USN also had the unsinkable Midway base plus PBY's (and in extremis B-17s) available for searching. This put Nagumo at a profound disadvantage.

Considering the weakness inherent in his one-phase search system, its likely he will be taken by surprise again. After that, who knows?
 

Dave Howery

If you want even more carriers at Midway, you could say that the Japanese don't bother with the operation to capture Attu and Kiska, which leaves the Ryujo and Junyo available (82 more planes), along with 6 more cruisers and 13 more destroyers. It also frees up 5 American cruisers and 13 destroyers. But this may be stretching Japanese logistics to the breaking point...
 

Major Major

Dave Howery said:
If you want even more carriers at Midway, you could say that the Japanese don't bother with the operation to capture Attu and Kiska, which leaves the Ryujo and Junyo available (82 more planes), along with 6 more cruisers and 13 more destroyers. It also frees up 5 American cruisers and 13 destroyers. But this may be stretching Japanese logistics to the breaking point...
Click to expand...

Let's see . . .

Ryujo - Captain Tadao
Fighters ---- 22 A6M Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 16 D3A Vals

Junyo
Fighters ---- 16 A6M Zekes == Dive Bomber ---- 18 D3A Vals
(Maybe not, her top speed is 22 knots.)


But Admiral Nimitz could beg, too, and he could get another ship or two:

Indomitable -- Captain Troubridge
Fighters ---- 31 Sea Hurricanes == Torpedo Bomber ---- 24 Albacores

Formidable -- Captain Bisset
Fighters ---- 22 Martlet (F4F Wildcat) and Fulmar == Torpedo Bomber ---- 11 Albacores

Illustrious -- Captain Talbot
Fighters ---- 21 Martlet (F4F Wildcat) and 6 Fulmar == Torpedo Bomber ---- 18 Swordfish

Those Applecores and Stringbags look pretty funny, but the Japanese won't think so about the time they see flares falling out of the sky, followed by radar-guided torpedo bombers letting go with torpedoes that really work. The Royal Navy could launch at night. To quote Admiral Somerville, "Swordfish pilots are like whores, they come out and play at night.”
 

kclcmdr

CalBear said:
.....
One of the main questions of this scenario, which is interesting, BTW, and not one I've seen before, is HOW the two sides would deploy.

The Japanese were under the impression, incorrectly, that the USN deployed its carriers in a single large formation when operating multiple decks. This was based on a single photo taken during a FleetEx that was for publicity purposes. The IJN played around with the system and decided it had considerable merit in terms of CAP & escort utilization, mutual support, and concentration of striking power. The USN, at the time of Midway, had not actually adopted the mass formation, and wouldn't until 1944 when the number of carriers available more or less required it.
....
It would make for an interesting match.
Click to expand...

I was not aware that IJN mass air fleet Operations was implement due to an apparent misunderstanding of what was an USN mass air fleet show that was a publicity stunt that gave Imperial Japanese Navy the idea that it was a SOP for the USN Air Fleet Ops...

I was always under the impressions that Japan's Carrier Operations against Mainland China had forced them to launch airstrikes en-massed by multiple carriers present instead of single carrier strikes that appeared to have failed singularly like (pin-pricks towards a bear) against military and important targets of opportunities against the Nationalist Chinese and they used their mass-air strikes (like a swarm of bees to overwhelm the bear) instead to concentrate their bombs at targets and protect their attack squadrons........


Major Major said:
Let's see . . .

But Admiral Nimitz could beg, too, and he could get another ship or two:

Indomitable -- Captain Troubridge
Fighters ---- 31 Sea Hurricanes == Torpedo Bomber ---- 24 Albacores

Formidable -- Captain Bisset
Fighters ---- 22 Martlet (F4F Wildcat) and Fulmar == Torpedo Bomber ---- 11 Albacores

Illustrious -- Captain Talbot
Fighters ---- 21 Martlet (F4F Wildcat) and 6 Fulmar == Torpedo Bomber ---- 18 Swordfish

Those Applecores and Stringbags look pretty funny, but the Japanese won't think so about the time they see flares falling out of the sky, followed by radar-guided torpedo bombers letting go with torpedoes that really work. The Royal Navy could launch at night. To quote Admiral Somerville, "Swordfish pilots are like whores, they come out and play at night.”
Click to expand...

Maybe ... but with Five American Carriers available near Midway..

The British Navy might be reluctant to give up their few carrier assets holding their own in the MED and the Atlantic region with soo many American Carriers still available and kickin.....

besides..

There is still the USS Ranger ...
Even with her shorter flight deck length...
she could have her orders changed in April from doing duty in the South Atlantic and ordered to the Pacific for duties near the Hawaiian Islands

USS CV Ranger
(Guesstimate)
25 F4F Wildcats and 30 SBD Dauntless & 10 TBD Devastators

Heck.. If the USS Ranger had been ordered to the Pacific..
She could have joined up with the USS CVE Long Island ordered in the region in OTL at whole lot earlier... if possible...

USS CVE Long Island
19 F4F Wildcats and 12 SBD Dauntless dive bombers

Not sure how many escorts the USS CV Ranger had when she patrolled in the Atlantic or likewise the CVE Long Island...

Maybe these two will join up with the Saratoga... meh...
 
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Matt Wiser

Ranger was judged unsuitable for Pacific ops in 1939. She spent her war career in the Atlantic. She was too small, and plans in the early FDR years for four more ships based on her were canned in favor of the Yorktown-class ships.
 

Grimm Reaper

Since the US had broken the Japanese codes there is certainly no reason not to decline battle if the odds seem too unfavorable.

OTL had Nimitz learned that the IJN had thrown additional ships into the operation at the eleventh hour, including the Yamato and six other IJN battleships, he might have chosen not to risk a battle.
 

LittleSpeer

Monthly Donor
Props

This is a very original idea and one that has been taken seriously by the board. Very few Midway idea's make it to this point. I would love to see a mini-TL on this. (Secretly, I would love to see all the American Carriers and a good amount of the Pacific fleet taken out and then see how the war goes on from there; The Japanese then over-extending themselves even more then OTL is always a good read)
 

Matt Wiser

Correct: Ranger had no torpedo magazine, and usually didn't embark TBDs. VT-4 was actually more or less a level bombing and scouting unit than a torpedo squadron. And they only had eight TBDs anyway; same with VT-7 on Wasp. And they gladly sent their TBDs to the Training Command when TBFs started coming off the assembly line.
 

kclcmdr

usertron2020 said:
kclcmdr

The Ranger, AIUI, for most of its service life, did not carry torpedo bombers.
Matt Wiser said:
Correct: Ranger had no torpedo magazine, and usually didn't embark TBDs. VT-4 was actually more or less a level bombing and scouting unit than a torpedo squadron. And they only had eight TBDs anyway; same with VT-7 on Wasp. And they gladly sent their TBDs to the Training Command when TBFs started coming off the assembly line.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Thanks... I could not find anything on the net about the Ranger's Air Wing Strength ... just info of the titles for the squadrons..

VB-4, VT-4, and VF-4

And no specific info of their compositions, either...
 

kclcmdr

LittleSpeer said:
This is a very original idea and one that has been taken seriously by the board. Very few Midway idea's make it to this point. I would love to see a mini-TL on this. (Secretly, I would love to see all the American Carriers and a good amount of the Pacific fleet taken out and then see how the war goes on from there; The Japanese then over-extending themselves even more then OTL is always a good read)
Click to expand...
IF anybody wants to have a go at creating a new ATL ...
Go right ahead...
 
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