European NATO airforces alternatives, 1950-1990

Similar to the W-P and SU thread - what could've been done differently? Like what to do if the Lockheed bribery scandal went public a few years earlier, British and perhaps SAAB (yes, not a NATO country, but still) snatching the 1-engined fighter market from Dassault and Lockheed, alternative light combat aircraft (instead of G.91 and AMX), greater emphasis on STOVL/VTOL combat A/C etc.

No carrier-based stuff.

Any worth in turning the Fairey Delta into a combat aircraft?
 
Any worth in turning the Fairey Delta into a combat aircraft?
With work it could lead to an aircraft very similar to the Mirage III. As a side note the Mirage I was a less than successful aircraft that was abandoned shortly after the FD2 made some test flights from Dassault's airfield in France after which the Mirage III emerged. Pure coincidence of course, nothing underhand going on at all.


The Folland Gnat is designed to actually meet the Nato operational requirement rather than the designers obsessions and gets adopted instead of the Fiat G91.
 
From an industrial standpoint, France actually builds the eight pre-production Mirage 4000s requested by Saudi Arabia and secures the Saudi order for 300 aircraft.
 
Possible Dassault fighters past the M.III:
- Mirage F1, but also with the M.53 engine (as it was pitched to the NATO countries in the 1970s)
- Mirage 2000 gets built as a next-gen 1-engined fighter in the mid 1980s (instead of the Rafale), canard-delta, with engine of ~120 kN, with greater use of composites; it enters production and service by late 1980s, and has it's combat debut in the GW1; made also as a navalized fighter; size and looks sorta like the J-10
- Mirage 21 (tm), that is a small fighter, powered by a ~100 kN engine, 1st flight in 2015, designed with accents towards low-observability and networking
 
Viggen made around the Spey, not around an American engine, so it is easier to export it, (also the British might be more interested in buying it)?
 

Driftless

Donor
greater emphasis on STOVL/VTOL combat A/C etc.

Working from the premise that a concerted Warsaw Pact attack creates significant damage to NATO airfields? Or even having the more forward bases overrun?

So.... maybe more work on Harrier-like planes, or, as I've understood, the Saab fighters, where they were designed to work off paved roads and roadside revetments?

Wouldn't that loss or, or significant reduction of pre-war airfields put a premium on multi-role planes as well? Nato would be anticipating a seat-of-the-pants rapid adaptive response to a Warsaw Pact invasion
 
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Was there any chance for any of Messerschmitt or Heinkel's aircraft/designs to be accepted by NATO during the mid to late 50s? I remember reading how Heinkel tried to enter the NATO lightweight fighter competition (that lead to the G.91) with his lightweight delta wing fighter designed for Spain as an alternative to the HA-300. Or with the later interceptor program in the form of the He 031 Florett.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Viggen made around the Spey, not around an American engine, so it is easier to export it, (also the British might be more interested in buying it)?
If is an British engine it would be the RR Olympus. With the Spey it would have been twin engined
 

Ramontxo

Donor
I'd prefer it to be 1-engined, and with Spey.
Them it would have to be another aircraft. Otl Viggen had an 12600 kg wet thrust engine. Even if you get an uprated Spey giving the 6850 kg (dry) of its USamerican derivatives and you apply an 1,7 increase through the afterburner you would still be at something like 11645 kg wet thrust. I have read that the Swedes tried to get the Olympus imho it would have been a far better fit.
 
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Them it would have to be another aircraft. Otl Viggen had an 12600 kg wer thrust engine. Even if you get an uprated Spey giving the 6850 kg (dry) of its USamerican derivatives and you apply an 1,7 increase through the afterburner you would still be at something like 11645 kg wet thrust. I have read that the Swedes tried to get the Olympus imho it would have been a far better fit.
Yes, it would've been a tad smaller and lighter if it was developed around the Spey.
 
Was there any chance for any of Messerschmitt or Heinkel's aircraft/designs to be accepted by NATO during the mid to late 50s? I remember reading how Heinkel tried to enter the NATO lightweight fighter competition (that lead to the G.91) with his lightweight delta wing fighter designed for Spain as an alternative to the HA-300. Or with the later interceptor program in the form of the He 031 Florett.
Do you have a blue print or a model of the NATO lightweight fighter?
 
Do you have a blue print or a model of the NATO lightweight fighter?
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Thin wing Javelin fitted with RB106 to replace the Avons and Sapphires in later models.

Starts as NATO's main all weather fighter, later morphing into a Formidable strike fighter, the Javelin's versatile air brake enabling it to hit targets with surprising accuracy, while having surprisingly good STOL performance due to the big air brakes and an excess of power from the RB106 engines. Later Strike versions are carrying more ordinance than the F-4 in US service for ground attack/Interdictor missions.

"Later versions of the Javelin FGR.12 fitted with 4 Hindenberger fuel tanks per aircraft were famous for making the flight from Ascension island to the Falklands to reinforce the British forces in Port Stanley with sterling support from the V-1000 tankers and the STOL performance allowing them to just land and take off from the Port Stanley airport.

The surprise appearance of a flight of 4 BAE Javelin FGR.12 against the Argentinean invasion fleet delivered heavy losses to the initial wave of troopships, Helicopters and escorting A4 Skyhawks, enabling the small marine detachment to hold much longer than thought possible, the two Javelins that made it back to Ascension before the Falklands were over run are now on display at RAF Cosford and RAF Hendon."

While this is a little far fetched the Thin wing Javelin has a lot of room for growth, the RB106 engines will initially double the power while fitting into the same space as an Avon or a Sapphire, it has a big wing, lots of space in the fuselage to allow improvements to the avionics.

With the Javelins supersonic performance and it's adaptability it takes a lot of sales success from the Starfighter and later Phantom 2 lasting in service with the German air force and Naval air arm, RAF and RAAF until the turn of the Millennium.
 
If is an British engine it would be the RR Olympus. With the Spey it would have been twin engined
An Olympus Viggen was drawn up with the Olympus 022R, intended for supersonic use.

Heinkel were to have licence built Saro SR177. Given Belgian and Dutch licence building Hunter, there's potential for them picking up the P.1083 development had it gone through.
German intentions re Lightning F1a have been mentioned in other threads. Their interest in TSR2 gave several cabinet members sleepless nights.

Germany buys into Harrier proper. They did play around with Kestrel after all.

Belgium, Canada and Holland actually purchase Tornado. Alternately, the RAF get their way and Tornado is much larger (RAF wanted more range). Germany also interested in single seat MRCA that Panavia had dubbed the Lynx.
 
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The UK sponsor the development of a supersonic Hawker Hunter that leads to around 300 being built for the RAF with a further 36 built going to the Swiss Luftwaffe closely followed by license production of a further 108!

This then leads to various NATO orders?

Any takers?
 
It would be interesting to see a better developed Alpha Jet emerging from this. Upgraded electronics and a newer engine could turn this into a very deadly short range light attack aircraft for the Germans and could possibly see purchases from Belgium, Netherlands, and other smaller NATO nations near the Iron Curtain. I think it'd also be interesting to see Canada go in jointly for deployment of the Nimrod for maritime service to cover the north Atlantic, north Pacific, and Artic regions, perhaps their involvement getting Norway to buy in as well. Between the three countries investing, it could lead to some interesting upgrades in performance and might even lead to a UK lead replacement in the 90s rather than a Boeing option.
 
Dassault and AVRO Canada work together on a swept wing CF 100, supersonic capable. The second version, CF 102, is powered by Orenda Iroquois engines which Dassault builds under favourable license agreement. The CF 102 is also armed with 4 30mm cannons.
 
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