European language other than English becomes International language

[archaeogeek]

When Zamenhof created Esperanto he intended it to be used as an international language, the thing is we don't need a new language that will recognized everywhere on Earth as the international language, because we already have one, English.

And when he invented it it was french (english was not the international language at the zenith of the british empire, high level diplomacy was still conducted in french)

 

[The Grin Without a Cat]

Not quite. He intended it to be an international secondary language. Everyone would still speak their mother tongue, but everyone could also converse in Esperanto.

I said that Zamenhof wanted to create an international language, I did not say that he thought all other languages had to be abandoned..

When you remember that Zamenhof lived in eastern Europe where people often had to speak two, three, or more languages in order to get succeed in business, science, government, and other fields, you begin to understand why he came up with the idea of an universal secondary language.

Indeed.

The thing is we didn't have English as a universal language in 1888 when Zamenhof made his suggestions.

And, seeing as this in the pre-1900 forum, we're discussing a period in time before English grew to the overwhelming dominance it enjoys today so dismissing ideas because English already fits the bill is a gross conceptual error.

I suppose that you're right, but somebody brought up Esperanto and I merely said we have no need for Esperanto as English is technically already the international language.

And, I do not see Esperanto becoming anything before the internet either way, which came after-1900.

 

[archaeogeek]

I said that Zamenhof wanted to create an international language, I did not say that he thought all other languages had to be abandoned..



Indeed.




I suppose that you're right, but somebody brought up Esperanto and I merely said we have no need for Esperanto as English is technically already the international language.

And, I do not see Esperanto becoming anything before the internet either way, which came after-1900.

Except you're making a chronological mistake: english wasn't it at the time.

 

[Mostlyharmless]

What about Icelandic? We just need the whole of North America to speak it after a successful Vinland colonization. One could argue that there were not enough Icelanders but firstly most colonists could have travelled via Iceland and picked up Icelandic en route and secondly Icelandic could have become the natural linga franca of all the tribes of North America as Viking traders spread over the continent.

 

[The Grin Without a Cat]

Except you're making a chronological mistake: english wasn't it at the time.

It is now though...

 

[archaeogeek]

It is now though...

That it is now doesn't change a thing to the fact that international language is a very fluid position: when Esperanto was invented, it was to replace french, which I'm sure a lot of francophiles would have said "but why a new language when french fits the bill already."

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

What about Icelandic? We just need the whole of North America to speak it after a successful Vinland colonization. One could argue that there were not enough Icelanders but firstly most colonists could have travelled via Iceland and picked up Icelandic en route and secondly Icelandic could have become the natural linga franca of all the tribes of North America as Viking traders spread over the continent.

Well, firstly, it would have been Vinlandic Secondly, OTL Icelandic remained almost unchanged for 1000 years precisely because it was an isolated, unimportant backwater.

Vinlandic would, today, be a VERY different language, with simplified grammar (due to the interaction with a) natives, and b) all the European allophones who are likely to show up), and altered vocabulary. It would be as different from Old Norse as modern Norwegian is, at a guess.

So, no, "Icelandic" is impossible. Although something descended from it might work.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, firstly, it would have been Vinlandic Secondly, OTL Icelandic remained almost unchanged for 1000 years precisely because it was an isolated, unimportant backwater.

Vinlandic would, today, be a VERY different language, with simplified grammar (due to the interaction with a) natives, and b) all the European allophones who are likely to show up), and altered vocabulary. It would be as different from Old Norse as modern Norwegian is, at a guess.

So, no, "Icelandic" is impossible. Although something descended from it might work.

I agree with Daði on this one. This is even more so since the Aboriginal languages in the area of Vinland (i.e. the Cree-Naskapi-Innu continuum, a Central Algonquian language, in the case of Innu-aimun/Beothuk; Míkmaq, an Eastern Algonquian language; and Inuktitut in northern areas of OTL Labrador) work in a different way than most Indo-European languages. Features of Aboriginal languages may strengthen already existing tendencies or create innovations in the existing Old Scandinavian dialects - i.e. Vinlandic may retain vowel harmony and/or vowel balance longer than other Scandinavian languages, for example, or the creation of a rich derivational morphology that is based on the Aboriginal models and thus heavily use agglutination.

Plus, a large part of what makes up Vinlandic relies on the original dialects of the Norse settlers - they need not be solely from Iceland. This point can not be stressed enough, as one can not assume that Vinlandic will just be a clone of Icelandic - heck, Vinlandic could evolve to a degree that Icelanders would have a very hard time understanding Vinlanders speaking their language, even in the written language. In addition, it should be stressed that around the time of the alleged discoveries of Vinland was a transition period where the single "Common Scandinavian" was undergoing changes and, in the process, split into two different linguistic varieties, collectively called "Old Scandinavian" (to use the late Norwegian-American linguist Einar Haugen's terminology). Vinlandic would not be exempt - even more so if one chose a different linguistic base for Vinlandic. For example, if there was massive immigration to Vinland from, say, Dalarna and/or the Trøndelag/Jämtland/Härjedalen macroregion, Vinlandic would sound very different from Icelandic, as Elfdalian and, to an extent, Jamtlandic and the Trønder dialects of Norwegian, whilst part of Continental Scandinavian, are in a transition zone between the West Scandinavian and East Scandinavian languages. Even if Vinland was settled by Faroese people, Vinlandic would also sound different from Faroese.

Just my 2¢.

 

[Solomaxwell6]

New Amsterdam? That has nothing to do with it. The Dutch dominated part of the spice trade, and that was way bigger than the New World. Not to mention the banks in the Netherlands, and the Amsterdam stock exchange.

A lot of that loses its importance as time goes on, though. New York City is a city of immense global importance. Paramaribo is not. Jakarta's pretty big, but no New York. Assuming a development at all parallel to OTL, New Amsterdam is going to end up a hell of a lot more important than Suriname and Indonesia, and probably more important than the Netherlands itself in the long run.

 

[Valdemar II]

That it is now doesn't change a thing to the fact that international language is a very fluid position: when Esperanto was invented, it was to replace french, which I'm sure a lot of francophiles would have said "but why a new language when french fits the bill already."

French never had the same position as English have today, it was a language of status and for learned men, but the vast majority of bilingual and trilingual Europeans didn't speak French, it was a language mostly restricted to the elite outside French. North, east and central europeans commoneers spoke German as their second language, mechants often spoke English as their 3rd language, and French was secondary in learning to Latin.

English position today are unique, in how far it influence spread, it position as both the second language of both the elites and common man, it strenght both in education and trade. I don't belong to the category of people whom think you just need English abroad, but a monolingual English speaker are much better able to live outside the Anglosphere today, than monolingual French speaker would have been able to in the past.

 

[archaeogeek]

French never had the same position as English have today, it was a language of status and for learned men, but the vast majority of bilingual and trilingual Europeans didn't speak French, it was a language mostly restricted to the elite outside French. North, east and central europeans commoneers spoke German as their second language, mechants often spoke English as their 3rd language, and French was secondary in learning to Latin.

English position today are unique, in how far it influence spread, it position as both the second language of both the elites and common man, it strenght both in education and trade. I don't belong to the category of people whom think you just need English abroad, but a monolingual English speaker are much better able to live outside the Anglosphere today, than monolingual French speaker would have been able to in the past.

English is in that same position outside of the anglosphere (of which India is a member only to the same degree Russia was a francophone nation in the 19th century).

 

[Don Lardo]

It is now though...

And this thread is still on the pre-1900 board. That is the period in which the discussion should be set.

Seriously, isn't school back in session in most countries? Why are the boards still flooded with people like this? The general level of knuckleheadedness has remained so high since the summer that, among other things, the post-1900 board has basically become All Sealion, All The Time".

 

[Xavier]

A lot of that loses its importance as time goes on, though. New York City is a city of immense global importance. Paramaribo is not. Jakarta's pretty big, but no New York. Assuming a development at all parallel to OTL, New Amsterdam is going to end up a hell of a lot more important than Suriname and Indonesia, and probably more important than the Netherlands itself in the long run.

And why should Nieuw Amsterdam become as big and influential as NY did in OTL?

 

[The Grin Without a Cat]

And this thread is still on the pre-1900 board. That is the period in which the discussion should be set.

Seriously, isn't school back in session in most countries? Why are the boards still flooded with people like this? The general level of knuckleheadedness has remained so high since the summer that, among other things, the post-1900 board has basically become All Sealion, All The Time".

I know that, all that I said was that we have a international language now, and that is English, so please don't make strawman out of me you ass.

 

[Don Lardo]

English is in that same position outside of the anglosphere ....

No it isn't. The level of even partial English fluency outside the Anglosphere is mind boggling.

I've worked for decades across the globe in countries on every continent except Antarctica and there is always someone who either speaks English, wants to speak English, or is learning to speak English. Always.

When you're visiting a construction site in Irian and a fellow with sandals made out of old tires, a grass skirt, a t-shirt, tribal scars across his face, and betel-stained teeth walks up and says Good Morning to you, you begin to realize just how widespread English has become.

 

[archaeogeek]

No it isn't. The level of even partial English fluency outside the Anglosphere is mind boggling.

I've worked for decades across the globe in countries on every continent except Antarctica and there is always someone who either speaks English, wants to speak English, or is learning to speak English. Always.

When you're visiting a construction site in Irian and a fellow with sandals made out of old tires, a grass skirt, a t-shirt, tribal scars across his face, and betel-stained teeth walks up and says Good Morning to you, you begin to realize just how widespread English has become.

The level of partial fluency in the languages of the dominant great powers outside their national boundaries in the 19th century was also impressive: the 19th century was in many ways much more cosmopolitan than ours. That english has partial fluency today is not different at all.

 

[Don Lardo]

The level of partial fluency in the languages of the dominant great powers outside their national boundaries in the 19th century was also impressive: the 19th century was in many ways much more cosmopolitan than ours. That english has partial fluency today is not different at all.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Don Lardo]

I know that, all that I said was that we have a international language now...

And we're telling you that we're not talking about now.

This is the pre-1900 board, so suggesting that Esperanto or any of the other suggestions raised here won't work because English is the international language in 2010 makes no sense.

 

[The Grin Without a Cat]

And we're telling you that we're not talking about now.

This is the pre-1900 board, so suggesting that Esperanto or any of the other suggestions raised here won't work because English is the international language in 2010 makes no sense.

Thank you Captain Obvious, we established that point one page ago. I didn't say that Esperanto wouldn't work because English already is the international language, I said that English is the international language today, irrelevantly that this thread was posted in the pre-1900 board.

 

[Solomaxwell6]

And why should Nieuw Amsterdam become as big and influential as NY did in OTL?

Why not? Geographic location is still the same. New Netherlands (didn't mean to just say New Amsterdam in the previous post), which contained the coast of New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Delaware, and a decent chunk of Maryland, is in a really good position. Assume those states, with the exception of Maryland, expand out into their OTL borders. The big advantage New York had, which will remain an advantage for New Amsterdam, is the Hudson River. You have a fantastic harbor that leads into the mainland. Then it's an easy hop to build the Erie Canal. I don't see why the Netherlands (or the Dutch US?) shouldn't be able to build the canal. That means New Amsterdam controls trade to the Midwest. That in itself is nice, and with added tariffs, it's even nicer. There will be more of an impetus to find a different route, of course, but that'll take a while and it's not like the Erie Canal didn't face that same competition OTL. There's also no reason to believe New Amsterdam won't become a big banking/stock city, especially if New Netherlands gains independence early on. Considering its stronger connections with the Dutch, it's even more likely than OTL.

In addition, the ARW will be butterflied away, or at least delayed. Remember what Britain's strategy was OTL? Take New York and sever connections between New England and the South/Mid-Atlantic. That's no longer necessary in this TL. It's far more likely the thirteen colonies will stay part of British North America (well, eight colonies, since five are basically entirely in New Netherlands...). This means slower development of the area, and slower westward expansion (would the French sell Louisiana to Britain? Would Britain declare war on Mexico just for a piece of desert?). No, there's going to be a power void in North America in this timeline that New Netherlands is perfectly positioned to fill.