Europe without the Ottoman Empire...
- Thread starter Ran Exilis
- Start date
What Reformation?
You're not suggesting the whole Reformation would be butterflied away here, are you?
The Reformation was started by several dozens of people independantly from one another,
and it was largely a response to the corruption that plagued the Roman Catholic Church during that period.
Even if some of the persons involved in the Reformation are butterflied away, it would still not stop the whole movement itself.
On a side note: we all pretty much agree here that without an Ottoman invasion of southeastern Europe,
Hungary would most likely end up as one of the great powers in the area.
Now then, exactly what would the effects be of a strong Hungary in eastern Europe?
And what effect will this have on the German states?
Hungary would most likely end up as one of the great powers in the area.
Now then, exactly what would the effects be of a strong Hungary in eastern Europe?
And what effect will this have on the German states?
I'd expect a stronger Hungary to have a greater impact on nearby languages.
But these reasons may not be there. It is likely that Holy Roman Emperors would do some bitchslapping to papacy. IE the reformation can take an internal tone.
Because there are no other states that can complain about it. Wallachia, Serbia and Bulgaria won't just run over for Hungarian dominance...
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Many of the reasons for the Reformation were not just political, they were also a reaction to corruption within the Church, as well as several doctrinal issues.
...and in my opinion, *just* the lack of an Ottoman Empire won't result in changes that are strong enough to butterfly away the Reformation.
Your point is.....?
My question here was not wether Hungary would become a local power, but what effects the presence of such a strong Hungary would have on the further political developments in Europe.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Without the Ottoman Empire, though, the Counter-Reformation will be a WHOLE lot more effective.
Faeelin
Banned
Hrmm.
I'm not so sure.
Sure, if we suddenly wave our hands in 1520 and replace the Ottomans with a mass of petty and quarreling states.
But without the Ottomans, will Hungary and Bohemia end up as part of the Habsburg domains?
Is Venice taking a more assertive line against the Papacy?
Yes, that's true.
Pretty much all Hungarian Protestants that survived the Counter Reformation
survived because they lived in the Ottoman parts of Hungary.
That's what I've been wondering.
I think we'll still see a strong German influence in Bohemia and Hungary,
but I think it is safe to say that at least Hungary will never fall under Habsburg rule in this scenario.
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Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Not just that; Ottoman offensives against Spain and Austria were timed to assist Protestants - you may very well owe your independent statehood to Suleyman.
It is not about "just" a lack of Ottoman Empire- it gives later Emperors much more free hand in. Peace of Augspurg would not happen ITTL, and there is likelyhood of emperor that may do similar to Sigismund Luxemburg.
My point being, that this Super-Hungary is not given. Ottomans also eliminated all other oposition OTL, but ITTL, Bosnia, Croatia, Transylvania, all those areas won't accept Hungary well, and they have strategic depth given by Byzantines and other Balkan countries...
I think Hungary would be tied more closely to Germany. OTL, before Mohacs, the Habsburgs signed a treaty of inheritage and prior to that the Luxemburgs ruled Hungary. I suppose any German royal family would try to get Hungary, and IOTL there were plenty of chances to get the Hungarian throne. Maybe Hungary gets incorporated into the HRE? Or a dual monarchy k.u.k. Germany-Hungary?
IOTL, influential princes of neighbouring kongdoms tried to become HRE themselves, as did the French kings several times. ITTL, the Hungarian king might run for emperorship. And I suppose he'd have better chances than the French...
But of course, there would probably be fewer Germans in Hungary, since most Germsn settled into areas empty after the Ottomans were defeated by the Habsburgs.
IOTL, influential princes of neighbouring kongdoms tried to become HRE themselves, as did the French kings several times. ITTL, the Hungarian king might run for emperorship. And I suppose he'd have better chances than the French...
But of course, there would probably be fewer Germans in Hungary, since most Germsn settled into areas empty after the Ottomans were defeated by the Habsburgs.
So?
That doesn't matter at all for my point.
My point is that many influential German noble houses tried to get eastern countries as a powerbase for German politics. The Luxemburgs held Hungary and almost Poland, then the Habsburgs inherited it.
For any German noble, Hungary would be an important source of power for German politics. Thus with no Ottoman Empire, I assume we'd still see what we saw IOTL, hence intermarriage and union of Hungary or Poland with some German noble Houses which therefore will compete for the imperial throne.
This development started earlier with the colonization of the east and the incorporation of eastern-elbian lands into the Empire. After all, 3 out of 7 electorates are east of the old imperial frontier: Saxony, Brandenbourg and Bohemia. Both important German powers - Austria and Prussia - started as German counties and expanded further east, incorporating non-German minorities, and in case of AH majorities.
Without the Ottoman Empire, Poland and especially hungary will play a by far more important role in German politics, and probably Hungarian kings will be emperors several times - as IOTL.
regiggii
Banned
Where is the jumping off point on this though?
What kinda of a Byzantine State are we talking about? Post-1204, just locked into the western end of Anatolia and around the Aegean? Or one that wins at Myriocephalon in 1176 and avoids all of that 'Fourth Crusade' nonsense?
Because anything resembling the shell-schocked shards of Empire from OTL in the 1300's w/out the Ottomans, means to me that either the Serbs(Stephen Dushan) or the Hungarians go nuts and take over the Balkans, etc.
I'm also curious what this would mean to Russia....
What kinda of a Byzantine State are we talking about? Post-1204, just locked into the western end of Anatolia and around the Aegean? Or one that wins at Myriocephalon in 1176 and avoids all of that 'Fourth Crusade' nonsense?
Because anything resembling the shell-schocked shards of Empire from OTL in the 1300's w/out the Ottomans, means to me that either the Serbs(Stephen Dushan) or the Hungarians go nuts and take over the Balkans, etc.
I'm also curious what this would mean to Russia....