Etruscan Italy

Quite simply when people think of Etrusca replacing Rome they think of an Etruscan Empire, which frankly was impossible.

With that said, what if Etrusca simply won the Roman-Etruscan Wars putting Rome and her city states under Etrusca. Effectively except for a few Greek city states, who would likely later join the League, making Etrusca the rulers of the Italian Peninsula.

What happens now? Will the Etruscan League become more unified? Will Etrusca have a war with Carthage like Rome did or will the two tolerate each other because Etrusca had little to no interest in Sicily? Will Greeks be a more wide spread ethnic group? Could Etrusca even survive if so, for how long?

Anything else besides just the obvious European, North African and Middle Eastern cultures will be very different from what we know it without a Roman Empire.
 
I don't see that EL would become more unified. There wasn't such nationalism which would cause such. And probably not even common enemy.
 
I don't see that EL would become more unified. There wasn't such nationalism which would cause such. And probably not even common enemy.

Yeah, but clearly as we saw with the Roman Republic, there was some sense of "Italianness". Maybe Etrusca could simply use that to unify the Italic peoples. Etrusca already seemed to be doing pretty well with that until Rome became rebellious. Give Etrusca a defended Rome, Romes' rentry into the league, disband the Roman Army for good measure. Etrusca might just pull it off with promises of peace, stability, unity and protection.
 
Yeah, but clearly as we saw with the Roman Republic, there was some sense of "Italianness". Maybe Etrusca could simply use that to unify the Italic peoples. Etrusca already seemed to be doing pretty well with that until Rome became rebellious. Give Etrusca a defended Rome, Romes' rentry into the league, disband the Roman Army for good measure. Etrusca might just pull it off with promises of peace, stability, unity and protection.
Etruscan aint italic, They are greece.
 
Honestly, without something like Rome going on a conquest spree, I think you'll see an Italy in 4 parts

1) Gallic Po Valley - (hehe, Senones?), with the southwest part of an Etruscan League
2) Etruscan League, or League of X - a loose confederation
3) Samnia, essentially Samnites governing a huge stretch of S.Italy
4) Magna Grecia.

I think you might see a significant alliance between the Etruscans and Magna Grecia against the Samnites, but also in turn the Etruscans would want an alliance with the Samnites against the Gauls. Both of those major threats would probably force the League to build stronger institutions regarding defence, leading to a volunteer army, and then a much larger levee force. - With their main foreign policy objective being to break apart other larger leagues/defend themselves.

Although, I do love the idea of a volunteer army (i.e. the Minutemen from Fallout 4), helping Etruscans settle new territories, completely ignoring the present occupants, and then the entire League going "FFS, fine", and breaking the threat into smaller parts. Almost anarchic colonisation combined with sledgehammer problem-solving.
 
Etruscan aint italic, They are greece.
No? Where are you getting that from? They were certainly influenced by Greek culture, as were the Romans but they were their own thing. They certainly didn't speak any kind of Greek language.

As for a victorious Etruria, it's pretty hard to say but Rome's meteoric rise (comparatively) to me indicates some level of political decline among the Etruscans. Certainly the language and culture wouldn't be stamped out as quickly, but as others said perhaps the Samnites or Oscans would simply take Rome's place. Or even Gauls of the Po valley?

It would be truly fascinating if there was a loose confederation of Etruscan and Italic states that rebuffed all comers, but that seems pretty unlikely.
 
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I don't know if it was my timeline being referenced with mention of an Etruscan Empire but I feel it's relevant here. The Etruscan 'Empire' of my timeline is about the most extreme I feel the Etruscans can go with a POD as late as 480 BCE, and that extremity is basically modern Italy+much of the surrounding Alpine regions. That's it. Oh and Corsica. The Empire in question is only an impressive structure because there is nothing like the Roman Empire ITTL to compare it to. Indeed, that expanded state is from the last 20 years' of that ATL state's lifetime, and it's a direct factor in its total collapse. I feel like I pretty much explored the extremes the Etruscans *could* have gone to in that period without something ridiculous like giving them an Etruscan Alexander. The house the ATL Etruscans built was small, but the kind that you never forget after you've seen it.

The Etruscan League certainly could have centralised, either OTL or in your proposed situation of conquering a large chunk of Italia, there were temporary heads of the League with the power to command their combined armies in the field, it's a solid institutional platform. Their history demonstrates the capacity for political and state development, they certainly had the imagination to change the way their political affairs were conducted; for example, the office of zilath morphing from hereditary kingship to a magistracy, or even the shift to the institutionalised city-states in the first place. The problem is that they only regularly started to combine forces like that once they realised that the Romans had morphed from errant-colony to a serious menace to their independence, at which point this is already becoming a matter of 'the Etruscans don't lose to the Romans, either short or long term, the same way as the real 4th-3rd century BCE' which is a somewhat tall order. If they've reached the state of dominating Italy you imagined, I would say they already would have to have achieved a degree of workable unity, or had come under the thumb of one of the other cities, probably Tarchuna/Tarquinia based on its relative size and power.

The three biggest, or at least most predictable, OTL menaces to the Etruscans after the 5th century BCE (effectively their political apogee) are Celtic speakers in the North, Romans to the direct South, and the Greeks further South. None of these are easy things to deal with; the Greeks in Italy were no slouches, Syrakuse especially; the Celtic speakers to the North have many reasons to move south, the wealth of the Po valley being only the most obvious; lastly, archaeology indicates that 6th century Rome was already one of the largest cities on Italy, any Rome that survives Brennos' horde would be in one position or another to become a major Italian power. An Etruscan state or political sphere that lasts for a lot longer is possibly going to have to deal with either Germanic speakers or the population pump of Europe they helped contribute to.

Timelines where the Etruscans are given the room to develop new political structures, and centralise, probably need at least one of those 3 OTL forces to be hampered in some way. I've seen a few timelines where Rome is interfered with early on, for example being destroyed in 396- that doesn't remove the influence of Celtic speakers pressuring the Po Valley but it was the Romans that proved the existential threat to the Etruscans in the end. On the other hand, removing the invasion of 396 benefits Rome but removes the Etruscan loss of the Po Valley too, at least at that date, which is part of why the Etruscans were more vulnerable to the Romans in the early 4th century BCE. Likewise, the invasion had a pretty big impact on Rome's own cultural development and political ambitions, so there's all of that to be reckoned with too. My timeline, by contrast, has the Greeks be interfered with. This is more unpredictable but you could be talking about wider Etruscan domination over Campania, if the coalition that defended Cumae OTL can't come to the rescue for some reason (Syracuse losing Himera?). for example, and the Greeks in Italia slowly becoming something similar to Ionia under Lydia, followed by the Persians.

There's a lot of open possibilities for the Etruscans, even as alt historians we can sometimes go down the same predictable rabbit holes. With Rome conquered by the Etruscans, would you get tension with the Carthaginians? Not at first, no, there's a fair amount of evidence Carthage and the Etruscans had a very privileged trade relationship. But sooner or later the situation is going to change; the status quo already altered to have the Etruscans occupy and nom upon Latium, it will doubtless change again, either with the Etruscans having new ambitions or pressures or the same with regard to the Carthaginians. If they came to somehow occupy all of Sicily, say, sooner or later they are going to have a new problem, or find that owning certain parts of Italy are advantageous, or get brought onto the mainland via wars with the Italiotes. After all, the Carthaginians and Romans were frenemies in a fairly stable relationship for a long time, but their needs and changing situations changed the nature of the relationship. If you have a big paradigm shift occur to cause an ATL or as a result of the POD, sooner or later there's going to be others.
 
Honestly, without something like Rome going on a conquest spree, I think you'll see an Italy in 4 parts

1) Gallic Po Valley - (hehe, Senones?), with the southwest part of an Etruscan League
2) Etruscan League, or League of X - a loose confederation
3) Samnia, essentially Samnites governing a huge stretch of S.Italy
4) Magna Grecia.

I think you might see a significant alliance between the Etruscans and Magna Grecia against the Samnites, but also in turn the Etruscans would want an alliance with the Samnites against the Gauls. Both of those major threats would probably force the League to build stronger institutions regarding defence, leading to a volunteer army, and then a much larger levee force. - With their main foreign policy objective being to break apart other larger leagues/defend themselves.

Although, I do love the idea of a volunteer army (i.e. the Minutemen from Fallout 4), helping Etruscans settle new territories, completely ignoring the present occupants, and then the entire League going "FFS, fine", and breaking the threat into smaller parts. Almost anarchic colonisation combined with sledgehammer problem-solving.

I was thinking the same thing. Well with the Etruscans focusing on defending against the Gallic tribes of the Alps. I think I eventually the Etruscans would conquer the Alp tribes to use the Alps as a natural barrier.

If the Etruscans could stabilize, have a surplus of food and materials, you could definitely see Etruscan colonization. Which interestingly enough would have to eventually lead to an Etruscan-Punic War. Assuming Etrusca wins, or even if Carthage wins with generous terms, Etrusca will form a Standing Army. What they do with that standing army is debatable.

Cause the fact it comes down to is that the Etruscans were like the Carthaginians. They weren't conquers, they were traders and unifiers.
 
I don't know if it was my timeline being referenced with mention of an Etruscan Empire but I feel it's relevant here. The Etruscan 'Empire' of my timeline is about the most extreme I feel the Etruscans can go with a POD as late as 480 BCE, and that extremity is basically modern Italy+much of the surrounding Alpine regions. That's it. Oh and Corsica. The Empire in question is only an impressive structure because there is nothing like the Roman Empire ITTL to compare it to. Indeed, that expanded state is from the last 20 years' of that ATL state's lifetime, and it's a direct factor in its total collapse. I feel like I pretty much explored the extremes the Etruscans *could* have gone to in that period without something ridiculous like giving them an Etruscan Alexander. The house the ATL Etruscans built was small, but the kind that you never forget after you've seen it.

The Etruscan League certainly could have centralised, either OTL or in your proposed situation of conquering a large chunk of Italia, there were temporary heads of the League with the power to command their combined armies in the field, it's a solid institutional platform. Their history demonstrates the capacity for political and state development, they certainly had the imagination to change the way their political affairs were conducted; for example, the office of zilath morphing from hereditary kingship to a magistracy, or even the shift to the institutionalised city-states in the first place. The problem is that they only regularly started to combine forces like that once they realised that the Romans had morphed from errant-colony to a serious menace to their independence, at which point this is already becoming a matter of 'the Etruscans don't lose to the Romans, either short or long term, the same way as the real 4th-3rd century BCE' which is a somewhat tall order. If they've reached the state of dominating Italy you imagined, I would say they already would have to have achieved a degree of workable unity, or had come under the thumb of one of the other cities, probably Tarchuna/Tarquinia based on its relative size and power.

The three biggest, or at least most predictable, OTL menaces to the Etruscans after the 5th century BCE (effectively their political apogee) are Celtic speakers in the North, Romans to the direct South, and the Greeks further South. None of these are easy things to deal with; the Greeks in Italy were no slouches, Syrakuse especially; the Celtic speakers to the North have many reasons to move south, the wealth of the Po valley being only the most obvious; lastly, archaeology indicates that 6th century Rome was already one of the largest cities on Italy, any Rome that survives Brennos' horde would be in one position or another to become a major Italian power. An Etruscan state or political sphere that lasts for a lot longer is possibly going to have to deal with either Germanic speakers or the population pump of Europe they helped contribute to.

Timelines where the Etruscans are given the room to develop new political structures, and centralise, probably need at least one of those 3 OTL forces to be hampered in some way. I've seen a few timelines where Rome is interfered with early on, for example being destroyed in 396- that doesn't remove the influence of Celtic speakers pressuring the Po Valley but it was the Romans that proved the existential threat to the Etruscans in the end. On the other hand, removing the invasion of 396 benefits Rome but removes the Etruscan loss of the Po Valley too, at least at that date, which is part of why the Etruscans were more vulnerable to the Romans in the early 4th century BCE. Likewise, the invasion had a pretty big impact on Rome's own cultural development and political ambitions, so there's all of that to be reckoned with too. My timeline, by contrast, has the Greeks be interfered with. This is more unpredictable but you could be talking about wider Etruscan domination over Campania, if the coalition that defended Cumae OTL can't come to the rescue for some reason (Syracuse losing Himera?). for example, and the Greeks in Italia slowly becoming something similar to Ionia under Lydia, followed by the Persians.

There's a lot of open possibilities for the Etruscans, even as alt historians we can sometimes go down the same predictable rabbit holes. With Rome conquered by the Etruscans, would you get tension with the Carthaginians? Not at first, no, there's a fair amount of evidence Carthage and the Etruscans had a very privileged trade relationship. But sooner or later the situation is going to change; the status quo already altered to have the Etruscans occupy and nom upon Latium, it will doubtless change again, either with the Etruscans having new ambitions or pressures or the same with regard to the Carthaginians. If they came to somehow occupy all of Sicily, say, sooner or later they are going to have a new problem, or find that owning certain parts of Italy are advantageous, or get brought onto the mainland via wars with the Italiotes. After all, the Carthaginians and Romans were frenemies in a fairly stable relationship for a long time, but their needs and changing situations changed the nature of the relationship. If you have a big paradigm shift occur to cause an ATL or as a result of the POD, sooner or later there's going to be others.

I wasn't mentioning anyone specifically when talking about an Etruscan Empire. Simply that when people think about Etrusca replacing Rome they think that Etrusca will create an empire eventually to replace Roman influence in our timeline.

Well said all the way with all those alt timelines. Etrusca really is unpredictable after conquering Rome. They can destroy Rome to make sure such a thing as the Roman-Etruscan wars never happens again. Then centralize under the knowledge that staying a loose confederation will only make another city state grow to the power of Rome, then go South finishing off the Italian Peninsula. From there, maybe colonization, maybe move down to Sicily, maybe go North to conquer the Alps tribes to use the Alps as a natural barrier. When it comes to Carthage, Etruscans were like them. The Etruscans were traders not conquers. If a war break out between the two it's going to be a very different victory then we know. If Etrusca wins then they will centralize further, create a more professional better trained standing army. If Carthage wins, they will simply put Etrusca under their protection as a client state, like the Numidians. If Etrusca looses, since the Carthaginians weren't conquers, nothing too bad happens. If Carthage looses, again since the Etruscans weren't conquers, the Carthaginians will build a standing army knowing that they clearly need to get rid of their mercenary leve program.

Anyway you look at it, Mediterranean history would be very different until one of them decides to become a conquer and take out the other for control over the Mediterranean. Or, best case scenario they tolerate and even work with each other for mutual trade benefits.
 
I wonder if there was any truth to the Roman description of Etruscans as thinking in a fundamentally different way from themselves. To paraphrase, "We believe that because clouds come together lightning strikes, the Etruscans believe that clouds come together because lightning will strike". By all accounts they were incredibly superstitious even by Roman standards and I think possibly the most interesting part of victorious Etruria would be cultural influence. Even as the losers we still have a copy of the Liber Linteus Zagrebiensis from Ptolemaic Egypt so clearly they were no slouches in the cultural export field. I'm honestly kind of salivating at the hypothetical prospect of larger Etruscan archaeological sites!
 
I wonder if there was any truth to the Roman description of Etruscans as thinking in a fundamentally different way from themselves. To paraphrase, "We believe that because clouds come together lightning strikes, the Etruscans believe that clouds come together because lightning will strike". By all accounts they were incredibly superstitious even by Roman standards and I think possibly the most interesting part of victorious Etruria would be cultural influence. Even as the losers we still have a copy of the Liber Linteus Zagrebiensis from Ptolemaic Egypt so clearly they were no slouches in the cultural export field. I'm honestly kind of salivating at the hypothetical prospect of larger Etruscan archaeological sites!

Haha. It would be fascinating.

Plus when it comes to culture and superstition the Etruscans followed a revived faith not that different from Judaism. We could easily see a monotheistic religion in Italy had the Etruscans won. Like Judaism it would be ethnic but like Judaism again there would be exemptions and reforms.
 
Haha. It would be fascinating.

Plus when it comes to culture and superstition the Etruscans followed a revived faith not that different from Judaism. We could easily see a monotheistic religion in Italy had the Etruscans won. Like Judaism it would be ethnic but like Judaism again there would be exemptions and reforms.

When you say revived faith...? Is there some Etruscan revival I'm unaware of? Because the Etruscan of the era of the Etruscan leage were fairly famous for their polytheistic religion (Tin Aita Charun Calu?)
 
Revealed*

Sorry autocorrect is weird.
I think I catch your meaning. Are you suggesting that as a religion that incorporated revelation it was susceptible to becoming monotheistic? If that's the case then it certainly would be interesting to see the alternate religions. Though I think what made Judaism unique was the messianic element that as far as I know wasn't present in Etruscan folk religion.
 
I think I catch your meaning. Are you suggesting that as a religion that incorporated revelation it was susceptible to becoming monotheistic? If that's the case then it certainly would be interesting to see the alternate religions. Though I think what made Judaism unique was the messianic element that as far as I know wasn't present in Etruscan folk religion.

Well yes and no. I just mean the Etruscan Religion was, like Christianity and Judaism, a revealed religion. An account of the revelation is given by Cicero(On Divination 2.50) . One day, says the legend, in a field near the river Marta in Etruria, a strange event occurred. A divine being rose up from the newly ploughed furrow, a being with the appearance of a child, but with the wisdom of an old man. The startled cry of the ploughman brought lucomones, the priest kings of Etruria hurrying up to the spot. To them, the wise child chanted the sacred doctrine, which they reverently listened to and wrote down, so that this most precious possession could be passed on to their successors. Immediately after the revelation, the miraculous being fell dead and disappeared into the ploughed field. His name was Tages, and he was believed to be the son of Genius and grandson of the highest God, Tinia (or Jupiter as he became known to the Romans). This doctrine was known to the Romans as the disciplina etrusca.
 

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More relevantly, the more gender-equal (for the time) Etruscan society could have interesting repercussions.
 
Well yes and no. I just mean the Etruscan Religion was, like Christianity and Judaism, a revealed religion. An account of the revelation is given by Cicero(On Divination 2.50) . One day, says the legend, in a field near the river Marta in Etruria, a strange event occurred. A divine being rose up from the newly ploughed furrow, a being with the appearance of a child, but with the wisdom of an old man. The startled cry of the ploughman brought lucomones, the priest kings of Etruria hurrying up to the spot. To them, the wise child chanted the sacred doctrine, which they reverently listened to and wrote down, so that this most precious possession could be passed on to their successors. Immediately after the revelation, the miraculous being fell dead and disappeared into the ploughed field. His name was Tages, and he was believed to be the son of Genius and grandson of the highest God, Tinia (or Jupiter as he became known to the Romans). This doctrine was known to the Romans as the disciplina etrusca.
But that hardly makes it monotheistic of any kind, much less of the Jewish variety does it? I've never before heard of the Etruscans described as monotheistic, so I'm curious where this is from. Do you have any literature?

As I understand it so far, by your own standard wouldn't the Roman religion be just as monotheistic? It also included divine revelations and a supreme overall divine figure in Iuppiter.
 
But that hardly makes it monotheistic of any kind, much less of the Jewish variety does it? I've never before heard of the Etruscans described as monotheistic, so I'm curious where this is from. Do you have any literature?

As I understand it so far, by your own standard wouldn't the Roman religion be just as monotheistic? It also included divine revelations and a supreme overall divine figure in Iuppiter.

I didn't say it was monotheist merely that because of the fact of it being a revealed religion it could have formed into a monotheist religion given enough time and stability. Roman religion never became Monotheist because they were in constant conquest and always adding new gods or at least traits of other gods to their pantheon. The Etruscans were such a peaceful people not all that different from the Carthaginians they could have made Tinia the supreme and only God. Given they keep their peaceful stable course.
 
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