España No Ha Muerto: If Franco brought Spain into the Second World War

[Iggies]

And yeah, would they specifically name the IBs or would my suggestion of a general reference to "brave men who went to Spain to fight for democracy" work?

Almost certainly wouldn’t discuss them in any detail since that would require noting, as others have said, that most were communists, that the IB was organized by the Comintern, that they faced a lot of obstacles put in place by the US government on the way to Spain, etc.

Your suggestion is probably on point.

Probably something like:

Despite the indifferent policies of the democracies, not everybody was so complacent. Just as our republic would not have survived without men from foreign lands like Tadeusz Kosciuszko* who came to fight for American liberty, so thousands of men from every corner of the world arrived in Spain to give their sweat, blood, and even their lives in the cause of the Spanish people. Even a contingent from our own country came, fighting under the banner of Abraham Lincoln and swearing by his oath that government of the people, by the people, and for the people, should not perish from the earth.

*they might mention Von Steuben but considering who’s the enemy right now it might be impolitic

 

[CarlosTheAltHistoryGuy]

Good TL, consider this watched!
Though, I have a question, sorry if it's kind of random, but, what will happen to the post-war Spanish immigration to Venezuela? Would the government still accept them, or would the whole Falangeism spiel affect that?

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Good TL, consider this watched!
Though, I have a question, sorry if it's kind of random, but, what will happen to the post-war Spanish immigration to Venezuela? Would the government still accept them, or would the whole Falangeism spiel affect that?

Considering OTL Venezuela accepted Spaniards even if they dislike the Francoist dictatorship, I think they will accept Spaniards with more enthusiasm after the overthrow of Franco and the stabilishment of a democratic (likely) republic.

 

[Post]

assuming the Germans aren't stupid enough to pull U-Boats from the Atlantic.

They were OTL, so with Gibraltar in their hands, they'll likely pull even more into the mediterranean.
OTL no U-boats that entered the mediterranean got out.

 

[CarlosTheAltHistoryGuy]

Considering OTL Venezuela accepted Spaniards even if they dislike the Francoist dictatorship, I think they will accept Spaniards with more enthusiasm after the overthrow of Franco and the stabilishment of a democratic (likely) republic.

I meant to say the more Francoist refugees

(Also fun fact, one my friends grandpa's was one of those exiles, he even renounced his Spanish citizenship)

 

[Mitridates the Great]

I meant to say the more Francoist refugees

(Also fun fact, one my friends grandpa's was one of those exiles, he even renounced his Spanish citizenship)

Sincerely I doubt the Latin American countries will reject someone. I mean, they accepted LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS. In comparation, Francoist refugees seems more soft.

 

[CarlosTheAltHistoryGuy]

Sincerely I doubt the Latin American countries will reject someone. I mean, they accepted LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS. In comparation, Francoist refugees seems more soft.

Ye, thinking about it, it was a bit of a dumb question tbh

 

[juanml82]

Sincerely I doubt the Latin American countries will reject someone. I mean, they accepted LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS. In comparation, Francoist refugees seems more soft.

Unlike CANADA, right?

 

[Garrison]

Sincerely I doubt the Latin American countries will reject someone. I mean, they accepted LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS. In comparation, Francoist refugees seems more soft.

Ahem, perhaps you have forgotten Operation Paperclip? Other parts of the world were also remarkably accommodating to Nazis.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Unlike CANADA, right?

I'm not Canadian you know?

Ahem, perhaps you have forgotten Operation Paperclip? Other parts of the world were also remarkably accommodating to Nazis.

Ahem, the point is precisely that it is not at all credible that there will be any massive reaction against Spanish refugees in Latin America because they have a long history of accepting anyone who gets off the boat there.

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

Alot of fascists and nazis who escaped to Central and South America kept a low profile, the same will probably be true for escaped Francoists.

 

[Gar48]

Alot of fascists and nazis who escaped to Central and South America kept a low profile, the same will probably be true for escaped Francoists.

Tbf the whole "South America should be part of Spain again" propaganda may piss off South America a bit.

It could become an obstacle for Francoists/Falangists trying to flee Europe.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

Tbf the whole "South America should be part of Spain again" propaganda may piss off South America a bit.

It could become an obstacle for Francoists/Falangists trying to flee Europe.

I'd say that will no longer be relevant as soon as Franco is hanging from a rope, and I'm pretty sure any Spanish immigrant will agree to express as loudly as possible how stupid the whole concept seems to them in the hypothetical case that someone decides question him about it...

Of course if those immigrants are identified as Francoists, well...

 

[Garrison]

I'm not Canadian you know?


Ahem, the point is precisely that it is not at all credible that there will be any massive reaction against Spanish refugees in Latin America because they have a long history of accepting anyone who gets off the boat there.

But you seemed to be suggesting that there was something special about Latin America accepting 'fucking Nazis'.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

But you seemed to be suggesting that there was something special about Latin America accepting 'fucking Nazis'.

No, I'm not suggesting there is something special except in the sense that this shows Latin America will accept any kind of emigrant, even Francoists or Nazis.

 

[rfmcdonald]

No, I'm not suggesting there is something special except in the sense that this shows Latin America will accept any kind of emigrant, even Francoists or Nazis.

As opposed to any other country?

Canada, I would note, recently had an international scandal relating to the failure to vet a Ukrainian SS veteran who got mass applause in the national parliament.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

As opposed to any other country?

Canada, I would note, recently had an international scandal relating to the failure to vet a Ukrainian SS veteran who got mass applause in the national parliament.

Since I was responding to a previous comment about Latin America, NOT Canada or "any other country", I thought it made sense to talk about that particular region of the world.

And again, I'm not Canadian and Canada is irrelevant in this discussion.

 

[mudhead]

Just caught up with this. Really good, with well thought out cod-sources.

….Conditions in many parts of the country, especially the rural and underdeveloped south, but including even the capital of Madrid, had verged on famine since the end of the civil war. The regime blamed this on the damage caused by the war, which in turn was of course blamed on the ‘reds.’ But in fact, the crisis was largely the fault of Franco’s policies. Arbitrary tariffs drove up prices far beyond what ordinary Spaniards could afford, while more than doubling the profits of industrial and agricultural magnates close to Franco, such as the Altos Hornos de Vizcaya steel company.

Housing was unaffordable, with tens of thousands of workers and their families crammed into filthy shantytowns around the outskirts of Madrid, Seville, and Barcelona. In these slums, where waste was disposed of in the streets, diseases like tuberculosis long in abeyance came roaring back, claiming tens of thousands per year.

C.J. Sansom's novel Winter in Madrid has a good portrayal of the desperates straits of the Spanish people at this time.

My opinion

Kübler had also brought with him Luftwaffe squadron StG2, composed of Stuka dive-bombers.

Quibble: StG2 was a Geschwader, a wing of about 120 aircraft.

I'd pretty much rule out Halberd,

1) As you say running the gun battery gauntlet on both sides of the straits is going to be hard (and there are Stukas based in Southern Spain as well)

StG2 was a skilful and experienced (by this date) anti-shipping unit, that gave the RN a lot of trouble in the Med.

 

[DG Valdron]

Unlike CANADA, right?

Speaking as a Canadian here. Am I supposed to feel bad? Yes, a few snuck through. I remember a scandal over John Demanchuk, who had crept in under a false identity. We kicked him out. And there was that guy that put one over on Parliament. We've had a few actual Nazis. I can't recall the Canadian government ever deliberately giving them shelter or toleration once they were known.

We have our own Nazis, our own Holocaust deniers, our own fascists. Malcolm Ross was a holocaust denying school teacher who lost his job over it.

We're not perfect. I feel no guilt over not being perfect, and will freely admit my countries sins and failures. Hell, I've put a large part of my life into trying to remedy them.

Why so thin skinned?

EDIT: I do not wish to disparage you, or Latin America, and if you take that from my comments, I apologize. But surely you are well aware that both Argentina and Chile were categorized as exhibiting Nazi sympathies during WWII and these and other South American countries, particularly Bolivia and Paraguay, were a favoured destination for Nazi war criminals and refugees. This was, in significant part, due to prior diplomatic work by the Nazi regime to build bridges and find like minded connections, and in large part because some dictatorial regimes like Stroessner's in Paraguay, actively welcomed and facilitated Nazis.

The story is complex, and there are many ugly sides to it. The culpability of the US in Operation Paperclip and its salvage and rescue of scientists and others they deemed valuable is a part of the story. Even Canada has its part.

But there is no need to take it personally, or to be defensive. A lot of Nazis went to South America for refuge and hid out there, including some quite famous ones. They had different reasons for going, but many of them went. The countries had different reasons for accepting them, including sympathy and affinity, corruption or simple ignorance. But it's one of those facts of life.

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

The Allies are going to be focusing on the Nazis, Franco will hang, either from the Hauge or a lamppost, and some of the higher leadership will join him. Most lower ranked government officials will probably be allowed to keep their and they'll pretend they were personally opposed to Franco and his regime. Most ex Nazis didn't leave Germany and got governmental jobs. The same will be true of Spain.