Es Geloybte Aretz Continuation Thread

Apologies but isn't a key tenet germanisation/prussianisation was the destruction/supression of Polish culture and identity? Have the policies that caused discrimination against the polish identity been stopped? Ignoring language wouldn't a polish not be culturally different enough to not count as German? Woudn't this reinforce the polish identity due to the us vs them mentality?

Historically, yes, this is exactly what happened. Repressive Germanization created stronger Polish nationhood among Prussian Poles where Prussian and Polish identity historically had not had difficulty co-existing before. Before 1870, I would venture to say that you would not have had to look very far to find Prussian Poles who were proud of their identity as Poles and proud of their identity as Prussians (but not Germans). Germanization made this impossible, both because Prussian identity became German-coded, to the exclusion of Polishness, but even more so, because Germanization made Poles enemies of the state, after such an event, you can't be a Prussian patriot anymore.

But, as Carlton has noted, this logic is not inescapable, because an identity of Polishness was also not an absolute, at least pre-Nazis.

Can i ask what would cause Poles to drop the Polish Language?

Think about this as if you were an immigrant to another country. Broadly speaking, immigrants tend to follow two patterns. You assimilate into the host country's over culture, you abandon your traditional festivals for their festivals, your tongue for their tongue, and so on. Sometimes this process works better than in others; for example, America is notoriously effective for assimilating nearly everyone, in Europe, Muslim immigrants sometimes remain ghetto-ized even to the third generation. Sometimes, this is colored by race, Hispanic Americans correctly may always seem a little outsider in America even if they become monolingually English (as commonly happens after a couple generations, see Ted Cruz for a very notable example), while the sharp distinction between a Scott Gottlieb or a John Kennedy and a Henry Cabot Lodge is not so great in 2021 as it would have been in 1880. Why do you do this? Partly since as an immigrant, you're actively opting for a different country and also then a different culture than one of your birth (this makes it way easier - Poles were not immigrants to Eastern Prussia and generally did not opt to become Prussians). But mostly because in a different country, if you want to have any hope for advancement, a better life, etc, you can't really avoid adopting the dominant culture of your new country, and to some degree, often to a very big degree, abandoning your old culture. That's how very distinct German and Irish communities in 1880 America became functionally indistinguishable from broader (White) America in 2021, and how Poles in Germany could become functionally indistinguishable from Germans.

Wilhelmine Germany ITTL was not fully at one extreme - OTL they were very close to the first case, ITTL they're more in the middle.
 
Think about this as if you were an immigrant to another country. Broadly speaking, immigrants tend to follow two patterns. You assimilate into the host country's over culture, you abandon your traditional festivals for their festivals, your tongue for their tongue, and so on. Sometimes this process works better than in others; for example, America is notoriously effective for assimilating nearly everyone, in Europe, Muslim immigrants sometimes remain ghetto-ized even to the third generation. Sometimes, this is colored by race, Hispanic Americans correctly may always seem a little outsider in America even if they become monolingually English (as commonly happens after a couple generations, see Ted Cruz for a very notable example), while the sharp distinction between a Scott Gottlieb or a John Kennedy and a Henry Cabot Lodge is not so great in 2021 as it would have been in 1880. Why do you do this? Partly since as an immigrant, you're actively opting for a different country and also then a different culture than one of your birth (this makes it way easier - Poles were not immigrants to Eastern Prussia and generally did not opt to become Prussians). But mostly because in a different country, if you want to have any hope for advancement, a better life, etc, you can't really avoid adopting the dominant culture of your new country, and to some degree, often to a very big degree, abandoning your old culture. That's how very distinct German and Irish communities in 1880 America became functionally indistinguishable from broader (White) America in 2021, and how Poles in Germany could become functionally indistinguishable from Germans.

Wilhelmine Germany ITTL was not fully at one extreme - OTL they were very close to the first case, ITTL they're more in the middle.
So because in this tl germany is less repressive towards poles, social advancement is possible it gives good reasoning for them to take it, while not enforcing them a identity. Okay i get it now. Can i ask how would this work in majority prussian polish areas. I know in the tl it was mentioned due to Poland being free Polish Poles entered into east german workforce causing issues for prussian poles, due to new cheaper labour. Would a push ironically from the bottom force majority prussian polish areas to germanise as they can't compete with Polish poles thus they need to either advance or develop new skills?

If so is that the reason a polish middle or upper class don't exist as fundermantally they would be german?
 
Yours is not an AH question: it seems a general human question --

The higher one rises, the more paper one has to push.
 
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Well, comparatively. The Baltic Germans are enjoying generous minority protections and are politically influential. The Sudetendeutshe, too, are safe and in a much better position inside the political system than they were IOTL.
Would we be correct in thinking of Prague as being basically 100% bilingual in Czech and German? Or will there be monolingual German speakers and Czech speakers and a highly divided city? Presumably the A-H Empire will require German at at least high school level?
 
Would we be correct in thinking of Prague as being basically 100% bilingual in Czech and German? Or will there be monolingual German speakers and Czech speakers and a highly divided city? Presumably the A-H Empire will require German at at least high school level?
There are a lot of unpleasant memoroes to overcome and some aspects of life are still largely monolingual (traditional churches, some sports, some parts of the educational sector, entertainment). But if you are hoping to do real business in Prague, unless your business is electoral polarisation you can't really afford to be monolingual. The AH policy in education is the 'Schemelmodell' where every pupil in upper secondary education needs to study two of the official languages. In Prague that effectively means German and Czech because practically nobody speaks Polish, Ruthenian, Italian, Croat or Hungarian here.
 
There are a lot of unpleasant memoroes to overcome and some aspects of life are still largely monolingual (traditional churches, some sports, some parts of the educational sector, entertainment). But if you are hoping to do real business in Prague, unless your business is electoral polarisation you can't really afford to be monolingual. The AH policy in education is the 'Schemelmodell' where every pupil in upper secondary education needs to study two of the official languages. In Prague that effectively means German and Czech because practically nobody speaks Polish, Ruthenian, Italian, Croat or Hungarian here.
Doesn't this just mean that basically everyone who isn't already ethnically German choses German as second language the way everyone learns English IOTL?
 
Doesn't this just mean that basically everyone who isn't already ethnically German choses German as second language the way everyone learns English IOTL?
Maybe but AFAIK for slavs its much easier to learn other slavic languages so I assume that those who really dont need it or simply want to be done with the language part of the curriculum easily will chose the easy option and learn other slavic languages instead of german - also because of spite.
 
Maybe but AFAIK for slavs its much easier to learn other slavic languages so I assume that those who really dont need it or simply want to be done with the language part of the curriculum easily will chose the easy option and learn other slavic languages instead of german - also because of spite.

The problem is that everyone would need it. It would be like a South African who didn’t want to learn English.
 
Im not sure you absolutely needed it OTL in Bohemia. Also not everyone needs it: peasents, workers - basically the lower classes.
This is true, but German would facilitate social and physical mobility a great deal in a surviving AH.

I do suspect a number of non Magyars in (Greater) Hungary would make a point to select German as well out of outright spite.
 
This is true, but German would facilitate social and physical mobility a great deal in a surviving AH.

I do suspect a number of non Magyars in (Greater) Hungary would make a point to select German as well out of outright spite.
Im not sure about the situation in TTL, but OTL one of the big difference between the 2 sides of the dual monarchy were that germans were a minority in Austria but hungarians were a majority in Hungary - and their percentage was swiftly growing. Further hungarian was not an official language in Austria and german was not an official language in Hungary (only in the joint army). This was the main reason for the fact that hungarians could dominate the hungarian side of the Monarchy - and pursue a magyarization policy - while the germans lost control of the Austrian side of the dual monarchy (their original plans were similar to the hungarians) and it was AFAIK not necessery to learn german to do your official business in Bohemia or Galicia.
 
Im not sure about the situation in TTL, but OTL one of the big difference between the 2 sides of the dual monarchy were that germans were a minority in Austria but hungarians were a majority in Hungary - and their percentage was swiftly growing.

Not that big a majority, tho' - according to the 1910 census [1], 48.1 % of the kingdom of Hungary spoke Magyar as their native tongue, 54.4% excluding Croatia and Slavonia.

[1] Assuming no nationalists have been monkeying with the article.
 
In Galizia there were very few Germans and even German speaking officials, who arrived from Austria "proper", were usually assimilated by Polish majority (as both were Catholic it was quite easy, especially considering the fact, that Galizia lacked German speaking Catholic clergy) and their kids were Poles with German surnames.
 
Not that big a majority, tho' - according to the 1910 census [1], 48.1 % of the kingdom of Hungary spoke Magyar as their native tongue, 54.4% excluding Croatia and Slavonia.

[1] Assuming no nationalists have been monkeying with the article.
You have to look at more than just the percentages - we are before the time of full and equal voting rights and the upper class was near fully hungarian. The middle class was much more diverse and a widening of the suffrage was on the table OTL before the outbreak of the war so the political situation would have likely changed - but I know enough of the plans that one of the most important aspects of them was to minimize this effect of the reform (through garrymendering etc.). Assimilation among the middle class was also high. I think the hungarians were well posed to contiue to dominate politically the Kingdom for a while. The movements of the national minorities also were not in a stage outside of pairlament even in OTL 1914 to alarm the hungarian political class.
 
There are a lot of unpleasant memoroes to overcome and some aspects of life are still largely monolingual (traditional churches, some sports, some parts of the educational sector, entertainment). But if you are hoping to do real business in Prague, unless your business is electoral polarisation you can't really afford to be monolingual. The AH policy in education is the 'Schemelmodell' where every pupil in upper secondary education needs to study two of the official languages. In Prague that effectively means German and Czech because practically nobody speaks Polish, Ruthenian, Italian, Croat or Hungarian here.
That makes sense, I also envision primarily German language schools in those German enclaves doing quite well.

Whilst everyone is quite rightly wondering about the non-German Austro-Hungarians, I am left wondering how the crown lands which are essentially 100% Geman speaking deal with the requirement to learn a second official language.

On the one hand, presumably someone hoping to rise very high in Federal politics will need to learn Hungarian (see Canada and French competent PMs). But in terms of international usefulness, Hungarian probably isn't that important since most Hungarians speak German which is one of the big three languages of the 20th Century. (Also Hungarian is a bitch to learn compared to learning another Indo-European language in my experience).

Would not Italian or even Polish not offer more use? And then, would German-Austro-Hungarians not the need to be trilingual in either English or French just to keep up with their German neighbours? I'm sure some very rich Vienna parents will be pissed that they are paying their children to learn have to learn three languages?
 
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