Entente Victory with no US

Well, I'm doing TL research, because all my past ones have flopped for various reasons, and I came to the realization that every single thread we ahve (or that search finds) about the US not joining WWI have the CP winning or stalemate, or at the very least were dedicated to that line of thought before being derailed.

So, let's get some discussion in here on how the Entente could win, or even if you think no strategy change is needed, how much longer it would take. Also, post war treaty discussion would be interesting too.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
If the US doesn't enter and the Germans are able to pull off the last major offensive they had been planning on (the Spring Offensive was a slap-dash plan that was executed in order to knock the Entente out before the US got to Europe), then the Entente's sunk.

However, if the German offensive somehow does not manage to break the Entente (plausible), then the war will probably grind on for another year or so before both sides sue for peace due to sheer exhaustion, probably with a no change in borders in the West, but the CPs get to keep the East.

Other than that, you really have to depend on internal collapse on the part of the CPs, which isn't impossible, but not necessarily predetermined (as some would have you believe).
 
The search function isn't too terribly useful, as I found out when looking for electric-arc discussion last night. There have been plenty of Entente-wins-without-CP threads.
 

Shackel

Banned
America would become a superpower due to WWI being prolonged by up to one and a half years.

Europe would probably fall into a Depression from the massive amount of resources used up in the war, with Germany getting hit the hardest, breaking up into multiple states by either revolution or treaties(Rhineland, West Prussia, East Prussia, North Ger. Federation, South Ger. Federation, all are possibilities).

I would expect communism to spread through France and Germany, with the U.K. becoming authoritarian(along with the OTL authoritarians). WWII may become a free-for-all between the ideologies.
 

MrP

Banned
America would become a superpower due to WWI being prolonged by up to one and a half years.

Europe would probably fall into a Depression from the massive amount of resources used up in the war, with Germany getting hit the hardest, breaking up into multiple states by either revolution or treaties(Rhineland, West Prussia, East Prussia, North Ger. Federation, South Ger. Federation, all are possibilities).

I would expect communism to spread through France and Germany, with the U.K. becoming authoritarian(along with the OTL authoritarians). WWII may become a free-for-all between the ideologies.

My younger brother claimed the other week that a major cause of the Depression was that whereas British (and presumably other - he was unclear) companies paid out their profits as dividends to shareholders, American companies in fact falsified profits statements, and reinvested the (non-existent) money internally. I've been meaning to check up on that. Thanks for reminding me! :)
 
If the US doesn't enter and the Germans are able to pull off the last major offensive they had been planning on (the Spring Offensive was a slap-dash plan that was executed in order to knock the Entente out before the US got to Europe), then the Entente's sunk.

However, if the German offensive somehow does not manage to break the Entente (plausible), then the war will probably grind on for another year or so before both sides sue for peace due to sheer exhaustion, probably with a no change in borders in the West, but the CPs get to keep the East.

Other than that, you really have to depend on internal collapse on the part of the CPs, which isn't impossible, but not necessarily predetermined (as some would have you believe).

I personally prefer the internal colapse theroy, but am not a rabid fan of it as some are ;)

Search for the 'Rule Britannia' TL.

Is that a major point there? I always shy away from large established TLs becuase I generaly don't want a large read when I go looking for something. Then again, I complain when a TL isn't done because I want an update :eek:

The search function isn't too terribly useful, as I found out when looking for electric-arc discussion last night. There have been plenty of Entente-wins-without-CP threads.

Yeah, I noticed that thread. Read it right after I posted this one.

@everyone else: Sorry, no responce right now.
 

Blair152

Banned
Well, I'm doing TL research, because all my past ones have flopped for various reasons, and I came to the realization that every single thread we ahve (or that search finds) about the US not joining WWI have the CP winning or stalemate, or at the very least were dedicated to that line of thought before being derailed.

So, let's get some discussion in here on how the Entente could win, or even if you think no strategy change is needed, how much longer it would take. Also, post war treaty discussion would be interesting too.
You'll need a timeline where the United States doesn't get involved in the
war, i.e., no sinking of the RMS Lusitania, no Zimmermann telegram, no
Russian Revolution, no Bolshevik Revolution, a stronger Russia, Tsar Nicholas
II abdicates in favor of the Tsarevich, Rasputin isn't murdered. Rasputin said that if he was killed by the Russian peasants, the Russian monarchy would survive. If, on the other hand, if he was killed by the Tsar's family,
the Russian monarchy would fall.
 
I personally prefer the internal colapse theroy, but am not a rabid fan of it as some are ;)

Is that a major point there? I always shy away from large established TLs becuase I generaly don't want a large read when I go looking for something. Then again, I complain when a TL isn't done because I want an update :eek:
.

A long while since I read it but it involved a successful Gallipoli. As a result less fronts for the allies and better communication between the western allies and Russia. Also a very dangerous situation for Austria in the Balkans as very unlikely to get Bulgaria or anyone else join the central powers.


Your mentioned a couple of other possibilities, i.e. internal collapse and problems with nitrate supplies.

Another one I've thought about is if France doesn't switch to Plan XVII. Instead of dashing into the teeth of the German fortresses in A-L they stick with the plan of meeting the main German thrust through Belgium. Especially if at least some of the French realise fairly quickly the advantage of digging in the German army is in for a very, very rough time. Its committed to attacking, not just its own cult of the offensive but simply because of the entire German plan is to win in the west before Russia fully mobilises. As such your likely to see far, far larger German losses for minimal gains in terms of territory and strategic position. The French will take some heavy losses but probably no higher than OTL and maintain much of their territorial integrity and industrial heartland. With the main French armies further north you might also see the BEF go to Antwerp and as a result much of Flanders held, further compounding German problems.

A later possibility might be that after Karl becomes emperor of Austria his approaches for peace lead to a deal with the allies which sees Austria leave the war relatively undamaged territorially. Germany would then be pretty much forced to make peace.

Alternatively have the allied powers just generally perform a bit better and wear the Germans down somewhat faster and you could still get a German collapse without US military involvement.

An alternative to a successful Gallipoli is that the other Young Turks manage to sit on Enhva Pasha and prevent him dragging them into a war that I think few of them wanted. This would mean that the allies would again be able to use the straits for supplies between Russia and the west and avoid fighting on the various fronts with the Turks.

There are plenty of options for an allied victory without US intervention. Barring a lot of look or a flash or two of brilliance somewhere its going to be tough but not impossible.

I think the key reason why most people who look at WWI without the US think of a central powers victory is because they don't realise how desperate the last lunge from Germany was and how near collapse it was in so many ways. Hence they assume that without the US, who's involvement is generally over-estimated, possibly because it was so vastly more important in WWII, the allies will lose.

Steve
 
For the POD, I'm thinking along the lines of no resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare. The US is still dangerously close to entering, but support is just shy of what's needed. Perhaps the Zimmermann telegram isn't released, if the lack of merchant sinkings isn't enough. Also postulating that no futher actions provoke the US afterwards until very late 1917 at the earliest, by which point the tension is lower and has room to expand a bit without US entry.
 

Shackel

Banned
My younger brother claimed the other week that a major cause of the Depression was that whereas British (and presumably other - he was unclear) companies paid out their profits as dividends to shareholders, American companies in fact falsified profits statements, and reinvested the (non-existent) money internally. I've been meaning to check up on that. Thanks for reminding me! :)

Exactly. This may be avoided(would require some research to see if this had any links), or it may cause a (Second?)Great Depression, pulling Europe down FARTHER and possibly triggering the Second World War which could possibly bring the economy back UP, and maybe even farther than it did in OTL.

The U.S. could start interfering with the spread of communism, and when WWII starts, there may be more countries that would be funded(new Anti-Comintern Pact with the U.K., U.S., Italy, and non-communist German countries?) by it.
 
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