GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
There is a real linguistic need.
And yes, this is a spanning topic which begins before 1900 and continues after.
English language develops second person plural
- Thread starter GeographyDude
- Start date
There is a real linguistic need.
And yes, this is a spanning topic which begins before 1900 and continues after.
Louisiana and Maine: French vous
Most of Southwest: Spanish vos
New England and South: ye
Most of Southwest: Spanish vos
New England and South: ye
The easiest way to meet that, which is still found in peripheral areas of the UK and Ireland, is to retain the <thou>/<ye> distinction. To go further, I'd do <thou>/<ye> (the last one pronounced as if spelled <*yuh> or <yeah>) for singular and <yous> (found in Ireland and Scotland, IIRC) as a general 2nd personal plural.
Yes, just retain the "thou" as the first person singular, and maintain "you" as the second person plural.
Samuel Johnson's research suggests that "thou" was still in use during the 18th century.
Thou - Wikipedia
Yes, just retain the "thou" as the first person singular, and maintain "you" as the second person plural.
Samuel Johnson's research suggests that "thou" was still in use during the 18th century.
Thou - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Heck, in some dialects in the North of England, "thou" was in use until well into the twentieth century.
Yeah, this distinction did exist in the past, but was dropped, stupidly, at some point. Lack of a distinct second-person plural annoys the shit outa me. The very existence of "y'all" and "yous" shows that there is a persistent need for it that never went away...
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
This map is showing Philadelphia and south New Jersey, and also eastern Pennsylvania such as Allentown and Scranton. But even at the dark blue it’s only like 20 or 25%.
I will accept your judgment that “yous” has some usage around Chicago, especially by older persons.
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Yeah, that one's a bit redundant
What amuses me 'round here is the word "twicet"... obviously the past tense of "twice", to indicate something that you did two times in the past
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
I think the problem is that we run smack into the other distinction between formal and informal. Similar to how Spanish uses “tú” for second-person friendly and “usted” for second-person formal.
And with English, “thou” is just viewed as too formal for family members and friends. I mean, it’s church talk. And I wonder if the King James Bible helped to push it out of common usage?
Honestly I wonder how this data was recorded. Obviously, the creators of the map weren't in my high school woodshop class or in the diner I would periodically eat at growing up. I can only rely on what my ears have heard, hahaThis map is showing Philadelphia and south New Jersey, and also eastern Pennsylvania such as Allentown and Scranton. But even at the dark blue it’s onky like 20 or 25%.
I will accept your judgment that “yous” has some usage around Chicago, especially by older persons.
I was in Chicago a few years back, and was surprised by just how few people I encountered seemed to have the stereotypical "Chicago accent"... most seemed to have a rather flat, barely-accented midwestern accent...
I could never live in Chicago, would blow all my pay on restaurants every week
Thou actually had the opposite reputation- it dropped out of usage in part as being too informal. That informality is actually why Quakers hung on with using it, as a nod to their egalitarianism (Americans kept the handshake which had a similar origin, but ditched 'thou').
Agreed, the percentages seem a bit low... I've worked with a lot of upstate New Yorkers and known some Jerseyites (mainly South Jersey), and "yous/youse" seemed pretty common among them...
Yes, it is rare. My woodshop teacher was constantly made fun of for his accent and I have no idea why he spoke with such different mannerisms compared to everyone else (though I can confirm he was from the South Side). People in other parts of the country have remarked that I have an accent though I don't notice any discernable difference between the way I talk and the way people talk in Tennessee, Georgia or Texas for instance. Or in some cases the differences are so small that it's hard to tell.I was in Chicago a few years back, and was surprised by just how few people I encountered seemed to have the stereotypical "Chicago accent"... most seemed to have a rather flat, barely-accented midwestern accent...
I could never live in Chicago, would blow all my pay on restaurants every week
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During the trial of Sir Walter Raleigh, the prosecution addressed him as "thou" as a deliberate insult ("Yes, I 'thou' thee, thou traitor!").
GeographyDude
Gone Fishin'
I do not know the methodology of this 2016 book. As always, I recommend taking references with a grain of salt.