Emberverse: is America's disintegration irreversible?

[Moglwi]

I have always wondered if the US could have expaned to it historic size or stayed to gether if there was no trains or eletrical telegraph to provide communications. I am not sure the pony express would have been pratical over whaington DC to San Fransico

 

[Brent]

I have always wondered if the US could have expaned to it historic size or stayed to gether if there was no trains or eletrical telegraph to provide communications. I am not sure the pony express would have been pratical over whaington DC to San Fransico

I don't know how much the loss of transportation and communication effects it. Much of the USA as it currently stands had been assembled during low tech eras. I don't think technology would be the limiting factor as much as what attitutes and types of governments survive. Does the mind set of modern America survive or does a more nationalistic/empirial/manifest destiny (obviously I'm not sure how to describe it) attitude prevail. Example - Corvallis seems to be the closest thing to true democracy to survive. Can you see Corvallis having the will and unity of purpose to go on a campaign of conquest to unify america? They have a difficult time deciding to throw their forces into a campaign to fight the PPA which was blatantly and obviously gobbling up everything around it.
Or does the mentality of the British empire or the early USA return and prevail. The national identity that says, "we are the best, our culture, religion, etc is better than everyone elses. We know better how to govern and everyone is better off under our rule of government. And so, it is worth the cost in material and lives to bring everyone we can, under our rule.". I mean that is the very essence of the most enlightened expansionist societies. The worst, are the ones that just said, "we are strong than you and will take what we want.". I think history has shown, and I see nothing I the change that would alter historical prescedence in this case, that it will take a dictator, monarch or empire, some form of very hierarchical government to arise with the resources to put the USA back under one government.

 

[marl_d]

I'm reading The Sunrise Lands right now, pretty decent, the thing that bothers me the most is that the 2 main Religions are the Pagan Wiccan's which make sense and that every one that is Christian is Catholic. Sorry but most American's are Protestant of one denomination or another (54% in '96) and only 23% are Catholic. Granted the Catholics are the largest signal denomination but we'd see a lot of other Religious groups, lots of Baptists, Lutherans and Methodist. Being from Wisconsin i don't get why Volger is Catholic and not Lutheran would have made a lot more sense. also I think there would be a lot of Pentecostal esq cults emerge as well... CUT just seems kinda crazy and comes out of no where...

also think that there would be large pockets of survivors in the South, Carolina's, West Virgina/Virginia Georgia, North and Western Floridia, Louisiana, etc. a lot of those states have a lot of rural land and could support a lot of people.

 

[hopper2cool]

I'm reading The Sunrise Lands right now, pretty decent, the thing that bothers me the most is that the 2 main Religions are the Pagan Wiccan's which make sense and that every one that is Christian is Catholic. Sorry but most American's are Protestant of one denomination or another (54% in '96) and only 23% are Catholic. Granted the Catholics are the largest signal denomination but we'd see a lot of other Religious groups, lots of Baptists, Lutherans and Methodist. Being from Wisconsin i don't get why Volger is Catholic and not Lutheran would have made a lot more sense. also I think there would be a lot of Pentecostal esq cults emerge as well... CUT just seems kinda crazy and comes out of no where...

also think that there would be large pockets of survivors in the South, Carolina's, West Virgina/Virginia Georgia, North and Western Floridia, Louisiana, etc. a lot of those states have a lot of rural land and could support a lot of people.

The answer to this question and every single Stirling book is that Stirling likes to arrive at what he wants and then sets up the rules to get there.
But to try to explain your religious questions I think mainly the various Christians were scared into quit argueing among themselves. I find it unlikely but as I said above Stirling tries to make things end up certain ways. Unfortunately he wanted to make DTF end up similar to ISOT.
In ISOT it made sense for the various Christian denominations to unite. The Catholic priest had the most charisma and they were a small minority staying separate made little sense. In DTF we have the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, and various Protestant churches uniting just to simplify the world.

 

[marl_d]

Simplifying for a region i understand, but we've got 20 years isn't enough time to break up or simplify Christianity, it took 130+ years for the Reformation. It would just have been far more realistic if places like the Midwest were more diverse in their Religions than Oregon even if it meant more fanatics taking power

 

[MerryPrankster]

There were evangelical Protestants in "Dies the Fire" (whose leader talked a lot of trash about Juniper MacKenzie), but...

1. Portland seized Sutterdown and drove them away.

2. It took aid from Clan MacKenzie and the Clan-allied Bearkillers to help throw Portland out.

3. The preacher--the dominant personality and the provider of a "Founders Effect"--died of a heart attack in the middle of the battle.

Had Sutterdown been able to fend off Portland on its own or the preacher survived, Sutterdown could be a nucleus for a continued strong evangelical-Protestant tradition.

However, leaderless Sutterdown was drawn into the neo-pagan CM sphere, the Bearkillers seem religiously indifferent (the Larsons are Lutheran, but they don't seem zealous), and the only strong "religious" states are Portland (Catholic) and Mount Angel (Catholic).

 

[hopper2cool]

There were evangelical Protestants in "Dies the Fire" (whose leader talked a lot of trash about Juniper MacKenzie), but...

1. Portland seized Sutterdown and drove them away.

2. It took aid from Clan MacKenzie and the Clan-allied Bearkillers to help throw Portland out.

3. The preacher--the dominant personality and the provider of a "Founders Effect"--died of a heart attack in the middle of the battle.

Had Sutterdown been able to fend off Portland on its own or the preacher survived, Sutterdown could be a nucleus for a continued strong evangelical-Protestant tradition.

However, leaderless Sutterdown was drawn into the neo-pagan CM sphere, the Bearkillers seem religiously indifferent (the Larsons are Lutheran, but they don't seem zealous), and the only strong "religious" states are Portland (Catholic) and Mount Angel (Catholic).

Spoilers of a sort ahead.
See if we were talking about Oregon I would agree with that. But Stirling has Christianity unite in Europe in the next three books. That is the unlikely part.

 

[marl_d]

There were evangelical Protestants in "Dies the Fire" (whose leader talked a lot of trash about Juniper MacKenzie), but...

1. Portland seized Sutterdown and drove them away.

2. It took aid from Clan MacKenzie and the Clan-allied Bearkillers to help throw Portland out.

3. The preacher--the dominant personality and the provider of a "Founders Effect"--died of a heart attack in the middle of the battle.

Had Sutterdown been able to fend off Portland on its own or the preacher survived, Sutterdown could be a nucleus for a continued strong evangelical-Protestant tradition.

However, leaderless Sutterdown was drawn into the neo-pagan CM sphere, the Bearkillers seem religiously indifferent (the Larsons are Lutheran, but they don't seem zealous), and the only strong "religious" states are Portland (Catholic) and Mount Angel (Catholic).

that area of Oregon i understand with everything that happened, especially with everything between Dun Juniper-Sutterdown-PPA-Mount Angel-Bearkillers. that area consolidating under a couple different religions makes sense. What i'm saying would have had more Protestant influence are area's like Iowa, Marshland, Richland. all of those area's are predominately Protestant and wouldn't have shifted to Catholicism like it seems to imply with Volger. like i said earlier being from Wisconsin Volger would more likely have been Lutheran.

oh well...it's too bad that Stirling and Ian had to get into the little spat and Ian had to ban Stirling...he could have helped clear stuff up

 

[MerryPrankster]

Spoilers of a sort ahead.
See if we were talking about Oregon I would agree with that. But Stirling has Christianity unite in Europe in the next three books. That is the unlikely part.

To be fair, there're still Presbyterians and the Irish went schismatic rather than be coreligionists with the English.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Not to mention Protestant Scandinavia which will soon claim Germany, Holland and certainly other parts of Europe.


The uniting consisted of the Pope basically identifying the most powerful nation to come in Europe and doing whatever he had to do to associate that country with the Catholic Church, even if it meant that Catholics of the Anglican rite will undoubtedly run the Vatican in the future.

 

[marl_d]

well the Anglican church and Catholic church uniting isn't really that far fetched as they are basically the same only the head of the Anglican church being the Archbishop of Canterbury instead of the Pope. and IRL they are trying to reunite. and the only reason it broke off was cuz Henry VIII wanted a divorce from Cathrine.

 

[Kevin Renner]

Iowa is mainly Lutheran (what synod I don't know) with a minority population of Catholic and other Christian denominations. As to rural populations in Wisconsin I suspect that there are areas that are mostly or majority Lutheran and others that are majority Catholic. Episcopal, Baptists and Evangelicals are in the minority. But The Change will do strange things to society. Some will come to question faith, others will fall back on it. I suspect that rural congregations, especially the Catholic and Lutheran ones (ELCA* for sure) will try and find ways to consolidate their congregations in order to survive. They may come to call themselves catholic more in the universalist sense than the Roman sense. The Evangelicals are the real wild card. I suspect that some will be of the opinion that The Change happened as a Second Flood to purge mankind of wickedness. Others will see it as an abandonment by God. IMO the religous communities that will be the most stable are to Amish that don't get overrun by refugees and those small Jewish communities that do exist in the rural Midwest. Some which are in Iowa IIRC.

*The Catholics and the ELCA aren't that different. Aside from the little matter of the Pope I suspect that if one dropped into a Catholic or ELCA service without seeing a sign you might be hard pressed to see the difference. Aside from the Confession and Forgiveness at the start of the Lutheran service.

 

[Kevin Renner]

As to The United States disintergration. Yes the US will fall apart, and pretty damn quickly. Far too many will sit on the ass and wait for the government to come resue them. Others in the cities will loot the stores for food and then sit on their asses. Those from the cities that survive will be those that either get out fast by bicycle if possible or hunker down if they have enough food to last and can maintain a low profile.

 

[Thyme]

Iowa is mainly Lutheran (what synod I don't know) with a minority population of Catholic and other Christian denominations. As to rural populations in Wisconsin I suspect that there are areas that are mostly or majority Lutheran and others that are majority Catholic. Episcopal, Baptists and Evangelicals are in the minority. But The Change will do strange things to society. Some will come to question faith, others will fall back on it. I suspect that rural congregations, especially the Catholic and Lutheran ones (ELCA* for sure) will try and find ways to consolidate their congregations in order to survive. They may come to call themselves catholic more in the universalist sense than the Roman sense. The Evangelicals are the real wild card. I suspect that some will be of the opinion that The Change happened as a Second Flood to purge mankind of wickedness. Others will see it as an abandonment by God. IMO the religous communities that will be the most stable are to Amish that don't get overrun by refugees and those small Jewish communities that do exist in the rural Midwest. Some which are in Iowa IIRC.

*The Catholics and the ELCA aren't that different. Aside from the little matter of the Pope I suspect that if one dropped into a Catholic or ELCA service without seeing a sign you might be hard pressed to see the difference. Aside from the Confession and Forgiveness at the start of the Lutheran service.

Being ELCA (or used to be), and having several friends of the family who were Roman Catholic, it wouldn't be hard to tell them apart. The religious differences are much smaller than 400 years ago, but the ceremonial and decorative clues are rather distinct. On the other hand, a communion with the RC church in the fashion of several of the Eastern Rites might be possible, and local cooperation is almost assured.

 

[Brent]

I'm reading The Sunrise Lands right now, pretty decent, the thing that bothers me the most is that the 2 main Religions are the Pagan Wiccan's which make sense and that every one that is Christian is Catholic. Sorry but most American's are Protestant of one denomination or another (54% in '96) and only 23% are Catholic. Granted the Catholics are the largest signal denomination but we'd see a lot of other Religious groups, lots of Baptists, Lutherans and Methodist. Being from Wisconsin i don't get why Volger is Catholic and not Lutheran would have made a lot more sense. also I think there would be a lot of Pentecostal esq cults emerge as well... CUT just seems kinda crazy and comes out of no where...

also think that there would be large pockets of survivors in the South, Carolina's, West Virgina/Virginia Georgia, North and Western Floridia, Louisiana, etc. a lot of those states have a lot of rural land and could support a lot of people.

I think maybe you are seeing catholism as a dominant religion just because one catholic community is playing a large role in the story. In the descriptions given for the cities or towns the characters visit it is mentioned that there are several churches of different denominations. Look at the descriptions of Corvallis, Boise, and Des Moines. Even sutterdown has a Christian church within it's walls. An English representative came to speak to the lorings and as such stirling wrote about what the catholic church had been doing since the change, but that doesnt mean that other denominations are not still in existence or not active, stirling just hasn't talked about them. If it is true that the catholic church is more active in the changed world that could be explained by it's age and structure. The catholic church has survived both as a denomination and a political world power for a LONG time. No organization survives as a political force for that long without knowing how to survive. It's structure is also very different from many other denominations. I'll use the baptists as an example, I grew up a member of a baptist church so it's an easy example. In baptist churches, each individual church owns it's own property, chooses it's own ministers and decides whether it wants to join any of the baptist associations. If at any point the church doesn't like what the association is doing, it just stops being a member and stops sending the association money. There is no strong national or international organization because the power rests in the individual churches. In contrast, the individual catholic churches do not own thier own buildings or land, those are owned by the overall organization. Individual parishes don't choose thier minister, that is done by the overall organization. Ownership of the property and ability to appoint priest both contribute to the power of the catholic church as an organization and show the strength of that organization. A more autocratic and hierarchical organization such as the catholic church would probably have a better chance at getting reorganized quickly. I'm not saying I think that stirlings books portray a world dominated by Catholicism, but I could see how the catholic church could come out stronger post change.

 

[Faeelin]

As to The United States disintergration. Yes the US will fall apart, and pretty damn quickly. Far too many will sit on the ass and wait for the government to come resue them. Others in the cities will loot the stores for food and then sit on their asses.

And the virile men of the country shall live as space-God Alston intended!

 

[mrmandias]

If your suspension of disbelief doesn't go up to 11, you should probably forswear Sterling books. They're pulp. Comic books without pictures. Go elsewhere for the plausibility.

 

[Brent]

If your suspension of disbelief doesn't go up to 11, you should probably forswear Sterling books. They're pulp. Comic books without pictures. Go elsewhere for the plausibility.

as long as you realize when you read the books they are sci fi or fantasy they are actually pretty well written. If you can accept that there could be scetient beings that are WAY more advanced technologically than we are, then the premise behind the books is believable. Do we have a clue how to alter the laws of physics? No way. Is it possible we could learn how some day? Sure, it's possible. We couldn't even grasp that the world wasn't freaking flat a few hundred years ago. Is it so impossible to believe someone in the other trillions of worlds out there could be way ahead of us? I don't think so. No, there is no evidence that is the case, so i'll believe it when I see it, but I'm ok with reading fiction based on the premise that it could happen. The change that occurred in the books is fairly well defined in it's scope and achieves a very specific result. The results that stirling writes about, while not certain, are very plausible. it's almost impossible to predict the actions of individual humans or groups, but there are some well defined core desires and history can give some good clues as to how certain events will effect group behavior and reactions. While you can argue where what stirling writes WOULD happen, I don't think it can be said that his writing is far out of the realm of plausibility. I don't think you need a very high threshold of suspension of disbeleif to enjoy reading about stirlings fictional world in this series of books.

 

[Malta]

also think that there would be large pockets of survivors in the South, Carolina's, West Virgina/Virginia Georgia, North and Western Floridia, Louisiana, etc. a lot of those states have a lot of rural land and could support a lot of people.

I've been on his yahoo group and he has said to that in West Virginia and Louisiana that their are indeed small towns of survivors in the area. I don't think anyone has mentioned the other places, but with it he allows folks to write fanfiction covering those areas he is not including in the main area of the series.