Eleanor of Aquitaine Dies During the 2nd Crusade 1147 - 1150

Teriyaki

Teriyaki

Point of Divergence ... Once again I come to another bad ass woman of ancient times who I admire very much. Eleanor of Aquitaine hailed from the Duchy of Aquitaine, a region steeped in the traditions of courtly love, as well as wealthy. Eleanor was quite the catch, and could have her pick of any groom. Unfortunately for her, her pick was Louis the VII. A pious milksop, Louis saw marriage as only a means for consummation. When he did have relations with Eleanor, he had to be coaxed into it and begged God for forgiveness after. This doomed marriage produced two daughters, after which Louis gave Eleanor a divorce. But before this, the two of them together went on Crusade to Jerusalem, encouraged to go by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux. The Second Crusade was a disaster, and basically sealed the deal on the divorce. Eleanor and Louis even left in separate ships back to France. Eleanor later married the King of England, had eight additional children, and went on to live to the ripe old age of 81/82, a marvel considering the dangers of childbirth and also the longevity of men and women in this time rarely exceeded someone's 40's.

What if while on Crusade, Eleanor caught one of the many diseases rampant throughout the Middle Ages, lets say dysentery, and upon arrival in Jerusalem she promptly dies within a matter of days without returning to France with Louis. How does this change the course of history, and what effects would we see today?
 

colleoni

Teriyaki said:
Point of Divergence ... Once again I come to another bad ass woman of ancient times who I admire very much. Eleanor of Aquitaine hailed from the Duchy of Aquitaine, a region steeped in the traditions of courtly love, as well as wealthy. Eleanor was quite the catch, and could have her pick of any groom. Unfortunately for her, her pick was Louis the VII. A pious milksop, Louis saw marriage as only a means for consummation. When he did have relations with Eleanor, he had to be coaxed into it and begged God for forgiveness after. This doomed marriage produced two daughters, after which Louis gave Eleanor a divorce. But before this, the two of them together went on Crusade to Jerusalem, encouraged to go by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux. The Second Crusade was a disaster, and basically sealed the deal on the divorce. Eleanor and Louis even left in separate ships back to France. Eleanor later married the King of England, had eight additional children, and went on to live to the ripe old age of 81/82, a marvel considering the dangers of childbirth and also the longevity of men and women in this time rarely exceeded someone's 40's.

What if while on Crusade, Eleanor caught one of the many diseases rampant throughout the Middle Ages, lets say dysentery, and upon arrival in Jerusalem she promptly dies within a matter of days without returning to France with Louis. How does this change the course of history, and what effects would we see today?
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Well, for one Aquitaine remains to the french crown - either through her daughters, who will likely be married to somebody very very very loyal to the crown, or by keeping her daughters in a nunnery and incorporating Aquitaine after some shehanigans.
England is considerably poorer, but by butterflying
  1. Henry the young you don't have a civil war,
  2. Richard Lionheart you don't have an insane ransom to pay and
  3. John Lackland you don't have the Magna Charta as it is
etc etc
 

Cornelis

Teriyaki said:
Point of Divergence ... Once again I come to another bad ass woman of ancient times who I admire very much. Eleanor of Aquitaine hailed from the Duchy of Aquitaine, a region steeped in the traditions of courtly love, as well as wealthy. Eleanor was quite the catch, and could have her pick of any groom. Unfortunately for her, her pick was Louis the VII. A pious milksop, Louis saw marriage as only a means for consummation. When he did have relations with Eleanor, he had to be coaxed into it and begged God for forgiveness after. This doomed marriage produced two daughters, after which Louis gave Eleanor a divorce. But before this, the two of them together went on Crusade to Jerusalem, encouraged to go by Saint Bernard of Clairvaux. The Second Crusade was a disaster, and basically sealed the deal on the divorce. Eleanor and Louis even left in separate ships back to France. Eleanor later married the King of England, had eight additional children, and went on to live to the ripe old age of 81/82, a marvel considering the dangers of childbirth and also the longevity of men and women in this time rarely exceeded someone's 40's.

What if while on Crusade, Eleanor caught one of the many diseases rampant throughout the Middle Ages, lets say dysentery, and upon arrival in Jerusalem she promptly dies within a matter of days without returning to France with Louis. How does this change the course of history, and what effects would we see today?
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The butterflies are massive, as nor France nor England would have the OTL lines of kings. On the short scale, there was only one daughter of Eleanor born before the Crusade, Mary (°1145). After her, the heiress to Aquitaine is her aunt Petronilla (° c. 1125), whose husband is Count Raoul of Vermandois, cousin and loyal ally of King Louis VII. If Louis VII is shrewd enough - and that is not a given - he would work to split the Aquitanian inheritance between his daughter and her Vermandois cousins, ensuring neither becomes too powerful. Finding a suitable husband for Mary may be hard - there is no Capetian prince of appropriate age who is not at the same time the heir to a larger principality.
 

ByzantineLover

Cornelis said:
The butterflies are massive, as nor France nor England would have the OTL lines of kings. On the short scale, there was only one daughter of Eleanor born before the Crusade, Mary (°1145). After her, the heiress to Aquitaine is her aunt Petronilla (° c. 1125), whose husband is Count Raoul of Vermandois, cousin and loyal ally of King Louis VII. If Louis VII is shrewd enough - and that is not a given - he would work to split the Aquitanian inheritance between his daughter and her Vermandois cousins, ensuring neither becomes too powerful. Finding a suitable husband for Mary may be hard - there is no Capetian prince of appropriate age who is not at the same time the heir to a larger principality.
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How about Simon (b. 1141), son of Louis VII's brother, Robert, Count of Dreux?
 
Teriyaki

Teriyaki

Also you don't have all of Eleanor's children with Henry the II during her years. This would include:

William the IX
Henry the Young King
Matilda Duchess of Saxony
Richard the Lionhearted
Geoffrey the II
Queen Eleanor of Castile
Queen Joan of Sicily
John Lackland (King of England)

Without these eight children, several important alliances would not have been formed with other countries.

Also, who would be a possible bride for Henry the II without Eleanor being alive?
 
The Professor

The Professor

Cornelis said:
The butterflies are massive, as nor France nor England would have the OTL lines of kings. On the short scale, there was only one daughter of Eleanor born before the Crusade, Mary (°1145). After her, the heiress to Aquitaine is her aunt Petronilla (° c. 1125), whose husband is Count Raoul of Vermandois, cousin and loyal ally of King Louis VII. If Louis VII is shrewd enough - and that is not a given - he would work to split the Aquitanian inheritance between his daughter and her Vermandois cousins, ensuring neither becomes too powerful. Finding a suitable husband for Mary may be hard - there is no Capetian prince of appropriate age who is not at the same time the heir to a larger principality.
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I suspect the (greater) duchy is split into: Duchy of Guyenne (ie Aquitaine proper or minor), Duchy of Gascony, and County of Toulouse, with vassal rights held by Aquitaine major folding into the crown.
Guyenne would go to Marie and her heirs, would she still marry one of the Blois brothers TTL?
Gascony would go to Petronila and heirs, possibly splitting among her daughters if her son dies as OTL to avoid Flanders being strengthened.
Toulouse becomes much stronger TTL which will have butterflies on the Cathar movement.
Henry II might marry Constance, the sister of Conan IV of Brittany.
 

Cornelis

The Professor said:
I suspect the (greater) duchy is split into: Duchy of Guyenne (ie Aquitaine proper or minor), Duchy of Gascony, and County of Toulouse, with vassal rights held by Aquitaine major folding into the crown.
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You mean County of Poitou, right ?

The Professor said:
Guyenne would go to Marie and her heirs, would she still marry one of the Blois brothers TTL?
Gascony would go to Petronila and heirs, possibly splitting among her daughters if her son dies as OTL to avoid Flanders being strengthened.
Toulouse becomes much stronger TTL which will have butterflies on the Cathar movement.
Henry II might marry Constance, the sister of Conan IV of Brittany.
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The marriage of Marie and Blois was part of the marriage settlement of Louis VII's third wedding. Butterfly, I think.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Monter said:
He's referring to Toulouse, which wasn't part of Aquitaine at the time.
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That's actually debatable.
Agenais and Quercy held by Toulouse were certainly considered part of Aquitaine prior to Eleanor's marriage to Henry II.
Iirc Eleanor certainly claimed Toulouse as both an ancient Aquitaine fief and claimed by right of inheritance from Phillipa of Toulouse as heiress to William IV of Toulouse. Henry II definitely obtained homage from Raymond V c1173.
 

Cornelis

The Professor said:
Are you referring to Guyenne here?
Guyenne here refers to the counties of Poitou, La Marche, Angouleme, Perigord, Limousin, and Auvergne.
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I am afraid you are misunderstanding Guyenne here. "Guyenne" is another spelling of "Aquitaine", used from the 13th c. onwards and referred specifically to the "middle part" of Aquitaine, ie Bordelais, Périgord and Agenais. The term "Guyenne" came from the widespread use in this area of gascon instead of latin in civil acts. The "northern part" of Aquitaine, ie Poitou, Aunis, Saintonge, Angoumois, Marche and Limousin was never referred by a special name. Nonetheless, Poitiers was the center of the Dukes' power.
The Professor said:
That's actually debatable.
Agenais and Quercy held by Toulouse were certainly considered part of Aquitaine prior to Eleanor's marriage to Henry II.
Iirc Eleanor certainly claimed Toulouse as both an ancient Aquitaine fief and claimed by right of inheritance from Phillipa of Toulouse as heiress to William IV of Toulouse. Henry II definitely obtained homage from Raymond V c1173.
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Agenais was not held by Toulouse during Eleanor's times. Quercy was, but the Toulousains never did any fealty for it to the Duke of Aquitaine.

The claim of the Dukes to the County of Toulouse is another thing, an inheritance war. William IX and Philippa attacked Toulouse in 1098-1100 and 1108-1119, even if it was more of a civil war than an occupation. Eleanor and Louis VII tried the same in 1141, Henry II in 1159 - Louis VII saving the day !, an Aquitanian army in 1164. Henry II probably sponsored both the concilium of bishops who denunced the heresy in Toulousain, held at Tours in 1163 and the pontifical mission sent in Toulouse in 1178. The fealty of 1173 was a way for Henry to settle things differently, but it was of no consequence : Raymond did not pay any service to his "liege lord". The next attack by Richard was the direct control of western Toulousain in 1188-1196/97, with a civil war in Toulouse itself.

In short, Eleanor sure did have a claim to Toulouse, but it would take a major military intervention to uphold it. As local historians wrote, it was not a pretense of Toulousain being part of Aquitaine, but of the house of Poitiers being heiress to the house of Toulouse. The Toulouse élites who wanted to bypass the direct rule of their count during the 12th c. never appealed to the Dukes of Aquitaine, but to the King of France, as "Toulouse is yours" (ie you are the overlord of Toulouse) , as they wrote in 1165 and probably in 1188 as well.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Cornelis said:
I am afraid you are misunderstanding Guyenne here. "Guyenne" is another spelling of "Aquitaine", used from the 13th c. onwards and referred specifically to the "middle part" of Aquitaine, ie Bordelais, Périgord and Agenais. The term "Guyenne" came from the widespread use in this area of gascon instead of latin in civil acts. The "northern part" of Aquitaine, ie Poitou, Aunis, Saintonge, Angoumois, Marche and Limousin was never referred by a special name. Nonetheless, Poitiers was the center of the Dukes' power.
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I'm well aware of the origin of the term Guyenne hence why I also called it Aquitaine proper to distinguish from "greater Aquitaine". I was under the impression that it also included the northern counties precisely because the Dukes (before union with Gascony) were based in Poitou. The whole mishmash of references to Aquitaine/Guyenne/Gascony during the HYW is probably to blame! It's similar to the whole Northumbria/Northumberland confusion some people get.

You're right about Agenais, turns out it passed to Toulouse under Richard I while his mother was still alive.

Btw I'm not trying to conflate the inheritance issue with the vassal one just trying to show that it can complicate things.

At any rate my speculation was that rights of the northern counties go to Marie (under whatever name you like but I assume Aquitaine might edge out Poitou or we're just repeating the naming confusion again with Poitou instead), the south goes to Petronilla/Raouljr, and whatever the Count of Toulouse held of Aquitaine becomes held of France.
Of course Louis might drop La Marche and L'Angoumois etc out of Marie's rights altogether making them direct royal vassals and she only retains her direct possessions. In which case Aquitaine/Guyenne/etc drops out of use.
 

Cornelis

The Professor said:
I'm well aware of the origin of the term Guyenne hence why I also called it Aquitaine proper to distinguish from "greater Aquitaine". I was under the impression that it also included the northern counties precisely because the Dukes (before union with Gascony) were based in Poitou. The whole mishmash of references to Aquitaine/Guyenne/Gascony during the HYW is probably to blame! It's similar to the whole Northumbria/Northumberland confusion some people get.

You're right about Agenais, turns out it passed to Toulouse under Richard I while his mother was still alive.

Btw I'm not trying to conflate the inheritance issue with the vassal one just trying to show that it can complicate things.

At any rate my speculation was that rights of the northern counties go to Marie (under whatever name you like but I assume Aquitaine might edge out Poitou or we're just repeating the naming confusion again with Poitou instead), the south goes to Petronilla/Raouljr, and whatever the Count of Toulouse held of Aquitaine becomes held of France.
Of course Louis might drop La Marche and L'Angoumois etc out of Marie's rights altogether making them direct royal vassals and she only retains her direct possessions. In which case Aquitaine/Guyenne/etc drops out of use.
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So we would have a Gascony+Bordeaux+Agenais (plus lordship of the various small principalities of further south) and a Poitou+Saintonge+Aunis (with the lordship of the important counties in the interior) ?

I suppose that some vassal lords of Northern Aquitaine (counts of Périgord, La Marche, Angoulême, Auvergne, viscounts of Châtellerault, Turenne, Limoges, Ventadour, Comborn, Brosse, Aubusson, Thouars, lords of Déols, Issoudun, Fontenay, Montaigu, Montpensier) would try to remove their bond of fealty.
 
The Professor

The Professor

Cornelis said:
So we would have a Gascony+Bordeaux+Agenais (plus lordship of the various small principalities of further south) and a Poitou+Saintonge+Aunis (with the lordship of the important counties in the interior) ?
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In essence yes.

Cornelis said:
I suppose that some vassal lords of Northern Aquitaine (counts of Périgord, La Marche, Angoulême, Auvergne, viscounts of Châtellerault, Turenne, Limoges, Ventadour, Comborn, Brosse, Aubusson, Thouars, lords of Déols, Issoudun, Fontenay, Montaigu, Montpensier) would try to remove their bond of fealty.
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Oh indeed. It depends on how much Louis wants to pass on later to Marie and how much he can add to the Crown. Anything with rather vague/seesaw liege probably has those rights go to the crown.
The civil war in Auvergne probably invites Louis's successor in anyway and becomes direct royal fief even if no land is added to the Crown.
 
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