Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s
- Thread starter Beer
- Start date
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
I did not get any remark about my reporting yet. If no one will answer until Thursday, I will make a public report.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
@Hörnla, Barbarossa
From a geographical standpoint, yes, the situation is not too bad, but that is mainly because E-L in 1888 is not that densely settled. Otherwise we would have gotten a border situation akin to those Barbarossa linked in.
Between the voting districts was enough space to bring a halfway normal, if still not really good, border. The political fallout makes the situation worse. Both sides pokered high with sizeable efforts made.
Losing nearly all of Alsace for good, including Belfort and the Burgundian Gate, is a hit to France. While for the nationalists in Germany Lorraine is one. Losing German-majority regions is not what had been worked for.
Next chapter will be about a solution/mediation for the border situation.
@Tyr
Thank you again for the support. I myself have not gotten an answer either.
Nice, thank you.
One thing to realy round up the last map, would be some indication on what Germany/Frane "lost" in the ballot... but regardless nice work.
And it seems my last comment got swept under
. But I will await the next installment to see the results of the ballot.
One question, will we see some scenes on the internal facefalls when some people hear of this?
PS: who gets the complaints? would be "hillarious if it is the one complained about...
One thing to realy round up the last map, would be some indication on what Germany/Frane "lost" in the ballot... but regardless nice work.
And it seems my last comment got swept under
. But I will await the next installment to see the results of the ballot.One question, will we see some scenes on the internal facefalls when some people hear of this?
PS: who gets the complaints? would be "hillarious if it is the one complained about...
Beer
Banned
Hi!And it seems my last comment got swept under
Your comment is not forgotten, but the answer will be in the next or next-to-next update.
@Arrix
Thanks for the praise!
I am not sure if that outcome would be possible. I thing therer might have been a vote like in Austria (Carinthia) after WWI - The whole disputed territory would have been split into a few voting districts who would go to one side or the other depending on a majority vote for the whole distict and not for each community as it seems to have happened here.
Beer
Banned
Hi!
The post-WW1 plebiscites are a bad example how to do such a vote. Not all, but many were rigged to favour the groups the winners liked. e.g. The Tondern area voted with 80+% to stay with Germany, but came to Denmark. Or the trickery Italy was allowed to get away with in the South Tyrol votes is a bad joke at best.
In the ATL E-L plebiscite, while the relations Germany-France were not the best, both sides were rather sure of their win, underestimating the effects of 20 years of competing propaganda.
Now the coming update will be about how Berlin and Paris try to find a solution for this.
Well, every plebiscite of the 19th and early 20th century was rigged. The first plebiscites which were fair happened after World War II.
No not all votes were rigged.
The Tondern was really a bad example. South Tirol had never the chance to vote (IIRC) The votes in Carinthia and Burgenland were more or less "fair" local "rigging" might have happened, but its hard to tell where its losers propaganda.
Savoy was rigged (well, that happened in the 19th century).
Montenegro was rigged (the only member of the Entente ceased to exist after WW1).
Beer
Banned
Hi!
I do not have much time, so a quick answer: In South Tirol a vote was thought about, but Italy was allowed to add so much other(!) regions to "South Tyrol", that on paper the Germans were a minority and ST was added to Italy. Italy cheated blatantly in 1919.
@Barbarossa: Thanks for the additional examples.
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Ban of CalBear demanded
I have started this thread.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=10351127#post10351127
I have started this thread.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=10351127#post10351127
Tyr Anazasi
Banned
Wolf1965
Donor
Story Post
With Beer`s blessings:
[FONT="]From the book "Plebiscites or How to surprise politicians every time", O'Quinn Publishing 2004[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]After the results of the Alsace-Lorraine plebiscite were in, Berlin and Paris began to convene about how to sell this to the populations. Neither side wanted more negative publicity than needed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In the end, the borders had to be redrawn again. The governments agreed to put the spin on the good results in Lorraine and Alsace/Belfort/Montbeliard respectively. Since the districts were sometimes tiny, just little villages, where a handful of votes could turn the situation, in some areas the results were counted "anew".[/FONT]
[FONT="]In Lothringen/Lorraine, after the new counting, Spangen/Pange, Falkenberg and Duß/Dieuze were now connected with Deutsch-Lothringen, while regions like Avricourt were now in French-Lorraine.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That Lothringen/Lorraine was a success for the French propaganda can be seen not only in the land falling to France again, but the number of people. In the voting region roughly half a million people lived in 1888. Among them, a majority of 360,000 were native German speakers. In 1868 Germany had taken land with 300,000 German and 31,000 French speakers. After the plebiscite and the negotiated "green table border", Germany kept 261,000 German and 28,000 French native speakers.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In northern Elsaß/Alsace the border stayed the same, but further south, in the Belfort/ Montbeliard voting districts, most of the old County of Mömpelgard returned to Germany. Only the southernmost parts of the Arrondisement Montbeliard remained with France, mainly because of the presence of the Peugeot factories there.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In this part of the plebiscite, France had lost. While France got roughly 11,000 French and 3000 German native speakers in the Vogesen and Levencourt enclave back, Beffert/Mömpelgard (Belfort/Montbeliard) accounted for over 50,000 people added to Germany. Unsurprisingly, both Paris and Berlin decided to stress their respective victorious region in the reports and newspaper articles. [/FONT]
With Beer`s blessings:
[FONT="]From the book "Plebiscites or How to surprise politicians every time", O'Quinn Publishing 2004[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]After the results of the Alsace-Lorraine plebiscite were in, Berlin and Paris began to convene about how to sell this to the populations. Neither side wanted more negative publicity than needed.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In the end, the borders had to be redrawn again. The governments agreed to put the spin on the good results in Lorraine and Alsace/Belfort/Montbeliard respectively. Since the districts were sometimes tiny, just little villages, where a handful of votes could turn the situation, in some areas the results were counted "anew".[/FONT]
[FONT="]In Lothringen/Lorraine, after the new counting, Spangen/Pange, Falkenberg and Duß/Dieuze were now connected with Deutsch-Lothringen, while regions like Avricourt were now in French-Lorraine.[/FONT]
[FONT="]That Lothringen/Lorraine was a success for the French propaganda can be seen not only in the land falling to France again, but the number of people. In the voting region roughly half a million people lived in 1888. Among them, a majority of 360,000 were native German speakers. In 1868 Germany had taken land with 300,000 German and 31,000 French speakers. After the plebiscite and the negotiated "green table border", Germany kept 261,000 German and 28,000 French native speakers.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In northern Elsaß/Alsace the border stayed the same, but further south, in the Belfort/ Montbeliard voting districts, most of the old County of Mömpelgard returned to Germany. Only the southernmost parts of the Arrondisement Montbeliard remained with France, mainly because of the presence of the Peugeot factories there.[/FONT]
[FONT="]In this part of the plebiscite, France had lost. While France got roughly 11,000 French and 3000 German native speakers in the Vogesen and Levencourt enclave back, Beffert/Mömpelgard (Belfort/Montbeliard) accounted for over 50,000 people added to Germany. Unsurprisingly, both Paris and Berlin decided to stress their respective victorious region in the reports and newspaper articles. [/FONT]
Yeah, I knew he complained about Calbear's treatment (and so did others), Has he done something more "extreme"?