Eisen, Blut und Fernhandel -German Unification in the 1860s

Beer

Banned
Thanks for sharing.
Hi!

No problem. For most of us Germans (there are some too who like getting honeyed around the mouth) it is like that: Don´t come crashing in together with the door (only done in special cases), just say it straight and direct.
I think many problematic exchanges on AH stem from this differences what is seen as normal politeness and overly polite.
 
Hi!

No problem. For most of us Germans (there are some too who like getting honeyed around the mouth) it is like that: Don´t come crashing in together with the door (only done in special cases), just say it straight and direct.
I think many problematic exchanges on AH stem from this differences what is seen as normal politeness and overly polite.

I thought it was pretty interesting.

However, I am also fluent in Korean (as mentioned earlier), minored in Chinese (Mandarin), and learned Spanish during middle and high school. All three languages have two words for "you" (너 and 당신, 你 and 您, tú and usted), all of which also have corresponding plural forms, not to mention that Chinese even makes a distinction between the inclusive "we" (我们) and the exclusive "we" (咱们), although this is generally only used in spoken context. Korean also has up to seven speech levels that are required within each sentence, depending on the social status of the speaker(s), of which more than one can be used within a sentence, although only four are widely used (and largely corresponds with Japanese, which I'm sure you're aware of). On the other hand, while both Chinese and Spanish tend to be much less restrictive in this aspect, Chinese still has a large variety of terminology that indicate differing degrees of formality (请, 贵, etc), while the Spanish word for "Mr." (Señor) has a much wider range than its English counterpart.

(For reference, in Korean, using the informal forms when the formal ones should be used is essentially equivalent to typing in ALL CAPS LOCK in English.)

Additionally, Chinese makes very systematic distinctions in terms of family members, as a sibling's gender and age in relation to the speaker is very clear, not to mention making specific distinctions between all of the various "uncles" and "aunts" (mother's older brother's wife, for example). Korean then takes this to another level by making distinctions depending on whether the speaker is male or female, not to mention both formal and informal forms, although many of the nomenclatures are the same regardless of gender.

While Chinese sentences require a subject (I, you, he/she, etc.), verb conjugations mean that the reverse is true for Spanish. On the other hand, the subject is very frequently left out in Korean (much like Japanese), as it is generally implied in context due to the levels of formality that I explained above, and may even seem robotic if they are left in.

Additionally, while all three languages (and English) use different terminologies in spoken vs. written context, as well as those for formal vs. informal, the distinctions in Chinese are even more significant, as there is a very clear distinction between spoken (口语) and written (书面) forms, even down to the frequently-used conjugations (and, but, if, etc).

In other words, I am fully aware of the fact that native speakers of all three languages (as well as other ones) can view English speakers as very "rude" and "informal," as the latter language makes very few distinctions. However, this is an English-language forum, and all of the members here have been exposed to the Anglosphere (hence why they are here), although in varying degrees. I (and everyone else) cannot expect to conform to the norms of every different culture, and while I do realize that different members have lived in different countries with different norms (yours being German, for instance), we should all still try to conform to the standard (In Rome, do as the Romans do). Otherwise, I would expect members talking about Chinese or Korean history to be much more "respectful" and "formal" than they would have been when writing in English.

In any case, thank you for the notes about German culture, and I will keep them in mind if I ever happen to visit Germany. However, with all due respect, I will stick to what has worked for me, and while I will try my best to word my phrases carefully so that they will not "offend" another member, I will also be unable to keep everyone's interests in mind.

(If I do continue posting on this thread, my responses will be very delayed (by a week or two) because I will be busy with other things.)
 
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Beer

Banned
I thought it was pretty interesting...
HI!

Never said our discussion was not interesting, quite the contrary, just that we ran full steam into a misunderstanding.
Oh yes, I know very well how much special fun the honorifcs system of Japan (or other East Asian nations, even if do not speak those tongues) can be at times.
Still, even German and English have their politness system, just functioning differently. In German we use the various levels of meaning of Sie and Du and the insertion of specific words from the massive word hoard (among the top 3 in the world).
Nobody can be polite everywhere/anytime. There are too many variants, it is just that sometimes the various users filter it differently. So no harm done.

Until then!
 
HI!

Never said our discussion was not interesting, quite the contrary, just that we ran full steam into a misunderstanding.
Oh yes, I know very well how much special fun the honorifcs system of Japan (or other East Asian nations, even if do not speak those tongues) can be at times.
Still, even German and English have their politness system, just functioning differently. In German we use the various levels of meaning of Sie and Du and the insertion of specific words from the massive word hoard (among the top 3 in the world).
Nobody can be polite everywhere/anytime. There are too many variants, it is just that sometimes the various users filter it differently. So no harm done.

Until then!

Don't forget that accent* can further confuse the situation. "Wenn se meenen" and "Wenn Sie meinen" might translate the same but would represent another stage of meaning.

*and by whom it is spoken - is the bavarian trying to speak platt ? Probably friendly joking etc.
 

Beer

Banned
Don't forget that accent* can further confuse the situation. "Wenn se meenen" and "Wenn Sie meinen" might translate the same but would represent another stage of meaning.
*and by whom it is spoken - is the bavarian trying to speak platt ? Probably friendly joking etc.

A Bavarian trying to speak Platt is about the same like a French talking English.
Hi!

Quite right and not only that. Some things like e.g. the "Deetsch/Dätsch" joke function ONLY in dialect, even in standard German it does not come across correctly.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

Here is a new part. As always: Enjoy and please comment!

From the book "Buy British! - Successes and failures of Britain's trade", Cambridge 2002

It was German economist Friedrich List who once said, rather flippantly, that Free Trade is great - but only for already developed nations! Another of his bonmots was that he would always trade with a Free Trade nation first of all, but that he never found one.

These words were aimed at Britain in special, the main proponent of Free Trade in List's time. The German economist was a fan of Free Trade himself, but had correctly recognised, that even the British Empire only championed Free Trade when it suited London.
Because of this Friedrich List developed his own system and while he only saw the birth of the Zollverein during his lifetime, Germany and her economists would base and develop Germany's industrial model on his work.
Later, in the 1880s, List had been dead for over three decades already, the British Empire, largest economy on Earth at this time, felt something which had become unusual for Britain since Industrialisation began. Competitors closing in step by step, mainly Germany and the United States, recovering from the devastations of Civil War and Lost Decade.

The wake up call had been Japan trouncing Chinese and Korean forces during the Tonkin-Gapsin-War. The Japanese had been seen as a German client state at that time. Them successfully emulating Western nations showed that the world did not stay still.
To hinder the rivals and more importantly, kill the budding industrialisation of several "upstarts", Westminster decided to update a more or less shelved law of 1862, the Merchandise Mark Act.
This protectionist law tried for two goals. One was to protect the British customers from copy-cat products and steer them towards British stuff again, the other was to stigmatise all foreign goods. The Merchandise Mark Act with it' s notorious enforced label "Made in ..." is still part of the rules corpus of the Britannic Commonwealth even today. What were the results of one of the most-known trade regulations?

Indeed combined with other complementary laws in the end the MMA gave only a mixed bag of results.
The law succeeded in severely hindering, sometimes even killing, the industrialisation in several nations. All belonging to, what today is often called the "Third Group", countries with young, just starting industries. Among the most prominent victims were Imperial China and Serbia. While Chinese agrarian products and raw materials sold, few in Britain wanted to buy untried, unknown Chinese industry goods.
Several times the Merchandise Mark Act backfired spectacular. Germany might be the most visible example. For nations like Germany, the US, France or even Japan in parts, the law came too late but it is questionable if an earlier date would have helped.
In the early phase of her industrialisation Germany sold not only quality products, a lot of her trade goods were cheaply made knock-offs flooding the British market. But soon, with the industrialisation in Germany going faster and faster and a quality offensive to boot, German products reached and surpassed British ones. This was especially true in branches where Germany had quality goods from the start.

Another point why here the law failed was that Britain had been the pioneer of industrialisation, but was weak in and came late to several key industries, which were new in the late 19th century. Chemicals and electrical engineering among them. (And with the ATL Entente not stealing truckloads of patents and licenses after WW1, this lead remains)

Adding to the problem was something the British reporter E.E. Williams wrote down first. (OTL too) Having been the absolute Trade nation number one for a century, British traders grew a bit too self-assured and cocky. Their attitude was often described as "Take our products as they are or leave it. By the way, on our terms if you do."
German traders on the other hand tried to fulfil special wishes, often spoke bit of the local language and had few problems taking local money.
Topping it off was the fact that the MMA finally disclosed the origin of most products and many citizens of the British Empire suddenly saw that a lot of the goods they used were not British. But German, American, French, Japanese...

Many buyers now explicitly wanted German or other nations goods, which led to exploding exports of British competitors, especially Germany and the US. In hindsight the Merchandise Mark Act did only stop weak or met on the wrong foot competition of Britain. Several rivals even profited from that law.
 

Deimos

Banned
Thank you for heeding my request, Beer.

On the topic of German customs and politeness, I happened to observe that Germans value content or truthfulness over style and delivery and will without a second thought sacrifice the latter for the former.
As to the reasons for that I can only imagine the very evident lack of strong central government for several centuries left the Germans somewhat adverse to imitating their elites and their speech patterns (and even then, German nobility - especially the Hohenzollerns - were not noted for their politeness). On the other hand, German language saw a lot of influence from military language. Something remotely related to the barking of orders (called "schnarren" if I am not mistaken) found its way into civilian language. After the Second World War this positive image of uttering harsh truth without giving too much thought to style was left to be projected on the existing speech patterns of the working and lower middle classes.
 
Nice stuff

I just found this, and have enjoyed reading it from end to end. It seems very plausible.

I have a few questions, being a naval nut.

Where is warship development in this timeline? And radio detection systems could have been developed earlier--they were experimented with in the fading years of the 19th century. In this case, Wikipeida has things right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#History

Dreadnought style warships are, IMVHO, not going to happen quite yet, but they will come along. (A Nicaragua Canal is easier to widen than Panama in OTL)

Looking forwards to more.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

@all
Thank you for the praise and all the positive/negative feedback!

@Deimos
No problem. A chapter about that topic was already on my agenda when you wished for it. Just needed the free time to write it down.

@NHBL
Another chapter on naval matters, which will answer your question is already planned and should come soon.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

The next chapter has arrived, thanks to AH transdimensional post service.:)
As always: Enjoy and please comment!

From the book "Weyers Flottenhandbuch 2013/14"(Fleet handbook), B & G Druck

The 19th century
If there has been a century of rampant naval development then it was the 19th century. A Galleon from 1650 was not that much removed from a ship from the French Revolution Era. But if you compare a ship from 1800 with one from 1900, then the differences are obvious and massive.
The industrial revolution changed naval warfare forever and the nations had to cope with and embrace these changes. From roughly 1850 onward, the development of ships took on such speed that it produced an era of unprecedented experimentation. Old standards were suddenly obsolete, new ones unproved, nobody knowing the "true" way.

Unsurprisingly, Britain and her Royal Navy were the main developers. The British Empire rested on the Navy, so ships and research money was needed and given. Many new naval inventions were made, new ship classes developed, even if sometimes it went wrong, like with the HMS Captain. An early turret ship, it was an utter failure and cost many lives when it sank. The pinnacle of the British designs in that era would become the Dreadnought. Britain's main drawbacks were often overly conservative Admirals and the costs of the massive (1000+ ships at times)Royal Navy.
For young readers it might be surprising, but Tsarist Russia was another big developer in naval matters back then. There was even a time in the 19th century where Russia could have challenged the Royal Navy with good chances to win. Especially under the two "Alexander Tsars" Russia made great inroads in shipbuilding. The Generaladmiral and the Rurik are two examples of fine Russian ship designs. Russia´s problems were the limiting industrial capacity and like Britain had massive costs in upkeep and construction. The combination of these factors led to the decline of Russian sea power when the 20th century drew near. Then St. Petersburg commanded a massive fleet of rapidly aging ships, when not many years earlier the Russian Navy had been a serious competition for the Royal Navy. In addition, in the ambition to keep up with Britain, some duds had been produced as well.

When the German Navy entered the arena in the 1860s on the other hand, they were far away from the lofty heights of the Royal Navy, Wojenno Flot or the Marine Nationale. The Kaiserliche Marine, the first combined war fleet since the Hohenstaufen times, had a mountain to climb. Long sea lanes to protect, bases to be found and build and limited budget, since Germany needed a first class land army as well.
The cut off traditions since the middle ages and the small personal base at the start hurt deeply, but could be a blessing in disguise. To meet the set goals, experimentation was encouraged without much interference. While this sometimes led to expensive cul-de-sac developments, the German fleet made several notable inventions.
It is a testament to the tumultuous first decades of the Germany Navy, that the renowned Brandenburg-Class was green-lighted by an Infantry General! The other side of the coin is that this experimentation led to the invention of the Diesel engine in 1887. Diesel and MAN won the tender by the Marine for a petrol-saving alternative to steam engines. While it took until the 1890s for an operational ship-Diesel, the term Marschdiesel (roughly: Cruising Diesel) soon spread.

This era of naval invention saw many things still in use, some in use for a time. Britain e.g. developed the sandwich armour, which in different form and use lives on and the ship turbines. It led the British to the Destroyer and the Dreadnaught, among other things. Germany invented, as said above, the Diesel engine, hardened armour and new types of internal structure. The Japanese were especially inventive when it came to new ship types and variants, while it fell to the Russians to bring about the pinnacle of the Armoured Cruiser. Other nations contributed as well, with big and small inventions as did the above mentioned nations too. This myriad of improvements saw the transformation of ships like the Galleon or the Victory, the best of their time to the behemoths of modern times.
 

Deimos

Banned
Since we were teased with a future German navy consisting (mainly :eek:) of submarines the editors left out two crucial inventions of the time.

- the torpedo (Austrian/British - Austrian invention, optimized by a Briton)
- the machine-powered submersible (several disconnected efforts in France, Spain and the US)
 

Deimos

Banned
How did you get this impression? Beer never wrote something about German submarines. The Brandenburg-class is a battleship.

Beer teased us quite some time ago by using the names of famous u-boat commandants/proponents as future admirals and all but confirmed a very submarine-oriented German navy after this post.

And if I am not mistaken ITTL there was an early German submarine on lookout against the French blockade.
 
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Beer

Banned
Since we were teased with a future German navy consisting (mainly :eek:) of submarines the editors left out two crucial inventions of the time.

- the torpedo (Austrian/British - Austrian invention, optimized by a Briton)
- the machine-powered submersible (several disconnected efforts in France, Spain and the US)

How did you get this impression? Beer never wrote something about German submarines. The Brandenburg-class is a battleship.
Hi!

ATL Weyers did not leave out the U-Boote. They have their own chapter, (as do the Raider-Cruisers) since they are such an important part of the Kaiserliche Marine. The excerpt was for surface vessels only. If I do not push forward another part I have in mind, the next chapter will have something about the submarine developments in it.
 

Beer

Banned
Uh oh, I sense Diesel becoming the new standard fuel.
Hi!

In the ATL 2015 Now, Diesel is one of the most important fuels. But in the late 19th and early 20th century this was different. After it dawned on the military planers how much potential combined with great fuel efficiency the newly deviced engine had, offsetting it´s drawbacks easily, Ship-Diesel engines became a military secret for a time, sold only to a select few others.

Civilian use in trucks and later normal cars came rather soon, but until after the Great War Germany officially maintained and pushed the ruse that Diesel engines were unfit for ship use. This was only dropped after the war, since it had become impossible to cloak the fact. Too many people, own and enemy, had seen how many German warships were equipped at least partly with the "unuseable" Diesel engines.
 

Beer

Banned
Hi!

I am back and deeply disappointed by AH.com! "Life in black" slurred millions of soldiers by his heavily implied opinion that all, every single German soldier was a war criminal. When I defended them, saying that beside the war criminals there were millions of Axis powers soldiers who simply did their soldiers duty, I got kicked for "apologism of war crimes".

Calbear, not even trying to give the impression to be impartial, gave his highly biased opinion as reason for the kick. He stated that every(!) Japanese soldier and heavily implied that every German soldier as well, was a war criminal. This is factually and verifiably WRONG!
(For those who want to read about the real and supposed war crimes of Germans instead of Calbear´s polemic should look into the actual number of the "Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte", one of the most important and renowned periodicals for Historians.
In magazine 1/2015 the equally renowned Historian M. Brechtken brings a ton of hard evidence that the report on the war crimes of the German foreign ministry was concocted by limelight-greedy cobblers.
Some examples from the article: "Unterkomplexität" (lit. under tapestry, a polite German euphemism for utter crap), factually and scientifically hardly useable, trumped-up charges, overblown single cases, partly deliberate false depiction and a damage for the reliability of Historical research.
There are similar evidence backed critical works on the real and supposed war crimes of the Wehrmacht by e.g. Musial or Schmidt-Neuhaus (Der Fall Tarnopol 1941/1944 und das erfolgreiche Katyn-Modell der sowjetischen Geschichtsfälschung). Take for example the massacre of Tarnopol 1941, which had been pinned on the Wehrmacht for decades. Today it is proven without doubt that this war crime was executed by the Red Army, but propagandists still bend backward to paint the Wehrmacht responsible.
While some units of the German Army took part in more war crimes than was comported for decades, there are factually less incidents than the media-hype trumped up.

This is not apologism, I know well what happened, but hard cold facts are needed in light of Calbear´s untenable accusations.
Calbear insulted millions of soldiers with his knowledge on FOX-News level and his abuse of moderator power to further factually wrong German (and Japanese)-bashing. That Calbear is unable to treat all nations fairly, is nothing new, but what disappoints me most is that the upper echelon of AH let him do as he pleases, influencing discussions, dealing out unjust punishments and spreading verifiably wrong, highly biased opinions and polemic.

I like AH, but fear for this site since the number of incidents where true, but in some circles unpopular opinions are suppressed with moderation abuse, are on the rise. And the belittling tone does not help. I had to read that I had lacking knowledge. When it comes to German History, good parts and bad parts, several users including me, surpass Calbear´s one-sided, questionable one by a wide margin. If not for family matters, I would have become a full-time historian for German History. I know quite well what the Wehrmacht and the Teikoku Rikugun did - and what they did not! Calbear generalises deadbeat arguments with his ofttimes attested fragmentary knowledge of German History, which is insulting to many and borders on sedition. In twenty years of Internet use, I never came across such a one-sided, judgemental "moderator" before.

From the book "Plebiscites or How to surprise politicians every time", O'Quinn Publishing 2004

It is a truism that the outlooks of politicians and the people they govern are most often different from each other. Nothing shows that better than national referendums. An astonishing 94% of all referenda in the last 130 years did not go quite as "perfect" as the politicians hoped or counted for.
A prototype for this phenomenon is the "Alsace-Lorraine plebiscite" of 1888. The German Iron Chancellor had never been a big fan of retaking the region for Germany. Political considerations in relation to France and other strategic aims were more important in Bismarck´s view. But the very successful way the Romanic-Germanic War went, forced even Bismarck to change his targets for the treaty negotiations. Prestige reasons alone in conjunction with the politicians and parts of the military at home made it necessary to take some parts of metropolitan France.
It helped Bismarck greatly that the late Emperor Napoleon III requested negotiations comparatively early. The Iron Chancellor, the ultimate Realpolitiker, used this to get a result more to his liking. In the end, the treaty stipulations concerning Alsace-Lorraine went like this:
Germany annexed the majorly German-speaking areas directly, including some French-speaking regions to get smoother, more logical borders. Twenty years later, in 1888, there would be a plebiscite, but not only in the annexed areas, but in several other parts, coveted by German hardliners, as well. (OTL Alsace-Lorraine plus Belfort. Belfort belongs to the Sundgau historically. In OTL it stayed French, because Germany had taken more in Lorraine than the moderates in Germany wanted. As Moltke said: In victory, the victor has to be moderate.)

France accepted this easily, because it gave them the chance to regain further losses without a shot fired and were sure that the French regions in the plebiscite would vote for France. Bismarck got the moderate stipulations he hoped would poison the atmosphere of the German-French relations less heavily and it gave the hard-line nationalists a two decades diversion.
What followed were 20 years of gifts and propaganda by both sides for the region. On the eve of the plebiscite, both capitals were optimistic about the results.
While Paris counted the districts directly at the old borderline to be lost beforehand already, they were sure to push the new border far closer to the old one than the Germans would dream in their worst nightmares.
In Berlin many were sure to keep what was already German and win more of Lorraine, while several majorly French districts were seen as hopeless.

It was Rose Monday when the referendum results came in, due to several recounts by the astonished officials and shocked both nations. In Germany, the moniker "ein Rosenmontagsergebnis" (a Rose Monday conclusion) for a totally surprising event became proverbial.
Both nations competing fiercely with each other for decades brought about a mess of pro and con moods in the whole region, since many advertising efforts had been made uncoordinated by competing ministries. The German officials had underestimated the loss of connections with the old home-country since the whole Alsace-Lorraine had become French a century earlier, while the French underestimated how their centralist approach could alienate regions "out of favour" with Paris and the federal example of Germany close by.
The Lorraine vote was seen as a disaster by Germany, while the Alsace vote was one for France.

In Lorraine, while a strip along the old border was now staunchly German and the Saarburg area had expanded (to OTL borders), the rest of Lorraine had not been won, no, even some German-majority areas were lost again. Coupled with the wins in some now isolated districts, among them the then French-speaking towns Duß/Dieuze and Spangen/Pange, led to a rather awkward borderline. German-speakers know this region by the nickname of "das sechsfache Büsingen" (the six-times Büsingen), after the German enclave Büsingen in Switzerland.
In addition, the results laid to rest all preparations to make Lorraine a real district of Germany. Saarburg was incorporated into Elsaß/Alsace, the rest of German Lorraine was added to the Grand-duchy of Luxemburg, the Prussian Rhine-Province and the Bavarian Palatinate.

While Germany, despite considerable efforts to win more of Lorraine, lost there, France had to swallow her bitter pill concerning Alsace. As expected, the Schirmeck-Markirch region, with the exception of Markirch (Saint-Marie-aux-Mines) itself and some villages near Ottendorf, becoming the French Levencourt enclave, returned to France. But to the consternation of Paris these were the only wins in the whole of Alsace. The Belfort and Montbeliard region of Alsace, back then having only a small minority of German-speakers and being expected a sure win for France, instead voted for Germany. What had been countered in Lorraine by heavy French propaganda efforts, had functioned here. The region of Beffert had had the choice of further German investments or becoming a French backwater again. Combined with less efforts by France, believing the region to be assured, this led to the Burgundian Gate becoming German again.
Belfort and Montbeliard got their German names, Beffert and Mömpelgard, anew, becoming part of the Sundgaukreis (Sundgau district). To this day, Mömpelgard retains the distinction of being the only halfway large city in all of Germany with "MÖ" licence plates.

All in all, while the plebiscite helped in lowering the tensions between France and Germany, the unexpected results still left dreams on both sides.
 
We live here in a 'no ask, no tell' stuff, simple they favour their nation over anything else, favour other and will shit your tl(ask Mario own german timeline) just keep quiet buddy.

So..that would avoid late otl fiascos? or france would still want to fight with germany again?(not offense to french but they were like that). Again you proved franco.german enminity predeterminist is not set in stone...
 
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