Effects on native american societies of more prolongued contact with Vinland?

[Maburo]

When the Castilians permanently established contact between the old and new worlds, the inhabitants of the americas had several inherent disadvantages, perhaps the most notable being a lack of immunity to old war diseases. But, also of note was their lack of access to horses and livestock (outside alpacas and turkeys), and somewhat more limited use of metalwork.
Had the Norse colony in Vinland been significantly larger and influential before dying out, use of horses, knowledge of metalworking, and livestock could have spread acorss at least north america, and the devastating epidemics of old world diseases would come centuries before the castilians arrived. The Norse could have even taught natives how to make longboats, leading to native societies with much better sailing capabilities.
What sort of world would Columbus find come 1492? How would immune, horse riding natives influence Spanish and other europeans attempts at colonisation?

 

[Evil Crusader]

The only Norse site we've found was in a much more sparsely populated area and wasn't really intended to be a permanent settlement.
I believe the horse would slowly spread, but not much else would come of it.

 

[Canuck Wingnut]

I believe it was in Land of Ice and Mice where someone noted that Norse sheep and wool weaving techniques might have been useful to North American natives as a new source of fabric. I don't know much about Native American pre-Columbian textile work, but given the high cost of textiles in pre-industrial societies, a new introduction would presumably at least have a chance.

Shipbuilding technology is another interesting possibility- especially if the alt-North American seafarers discover the Grand Banks, bringing in a major new source of protein (in the form of seafood).

Writing is another frequently-cited technology that might have traveled with the Norse- although most of the population would have been illiterate, so the chances of crossing over to the native people is much lower than it might seem.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Honestly, probably not much. None of these changes would happen overnight. Trade would be limited with Amerindian societies, since on Newfoundland they have all the furs, timber, walrus tusks, and anything else they need (except maybe thralls). Meanwhile, many local Amerindians are so poor that their societies risk becoming dependent on Norse trading posts where they almost require the Norse to procure basic goods like kettles and axes and knives. There is no incentive to learn how they're made. Fortunately, the alcohol in Norse society is far weaker than in Early Modern Europe.

Nor would they be immune to disease. They would not have the numbers capable of making the disease endemic, so they'd go from one disastrous epidemic to the next, although they would learn how to cope with novel diseases and would have partial immunity to some diseases. Unfortunately, Vinland is so remote from both Europe and Amerindian population centers that there aren't likely to be many diseases that make it over, let alone diseases that spread far and wide. Iceland did not have any major epidemics until the early 15th century for instance, and this epidemic (IIRC smallpox) killed about half the population.

The Norse are unlikely to sell the natives horses because those were very rare in Iceland and Greenland. Feral horses are more likely to be hunted and eaten by natives. Possibly sheep or cattle. The Navajo for instance took well to herding (mostly stolen) Spanish sheep. But these would be in less sedentary, more developed societies like the Iroquoian peoples, or the New England Algonquians once they become wealthier due to centuries of (mostly indirect) Norse trade.

The real gamechanger would be Norse exiles and adventurers. Vinland is too small to have a large number of these, and they'd be just as likely to go back to Greenland, Iceland, or Norway than go west or south. But they'd be present, along with no doubt Christian missionaries, so no doubt a Metis population along with Europeanised natives would emerge. This is where Norse traditions and tech stands an actual chance at spreading. Say a son of a Norse man and an Iroquoian woman sees his father's axe as he visits and asks how it's made, and the father decides to teach him what he knows about metalworking. Or a native girl is raised by a Norse family, converted to Christianity, and later marries a Norse trader who settles in her ancestral village. She might teach her daughters how to use a Norse-style loom (and her husband would know how to build one) which is more efficient than the looms used by indigenous societies.

But that takes some time to start happening and I think the biggest result is that the Iroquoian societies and northern New England ones are much wealthier and maybe a little more populous, with some social groups (from what I can tell, they'd probably form a single clan which would spread between different societies) using Christian symbolism and holding to a syncretic faith. But since this would take some time after the settlement of Vinland--2-300 years at least--it probably will still be spreading as the first Europeans show up.

I believe it was in Land of Ice and Mice where someone noted that Norse sheep and wool weaving techniques might have been useful to North American natives as a new source of fabric. I don't know much about Native American pre-Columbian textile work, but given the high cost of textiles in pre-industrial societies, a new introduction would presumably at least have a chance.

Shipbuilding technology is another interesting possibility- especially if the alt-North American seafarers discover the Grand Banks, bringing in a major new source of protein (in the form of seafood).

Writing is another frequently-cited technology that might have traveled with the Norse- although most of the population would have been illiterate, so the chances of crossing over to the native people is much lower than it might seem.

There was little need for additional protein in northeastern Indian societies--they had plenty in the form of shellfish, fish in general, and game. It was carbs and calories in general they lacked. Rye and barley might be viable, especially in areas that didn't/rarely grew corn like the Canadian Maritimes or northern New England in the early 2nd millennium. So animals, if present, would be more valuable as pack animals or for wool.

I think writing would spread but remain a closely guarded secret. The main forms of writing in Iceland and Vinland would be Bibles and messages using runes, many of which were ceremonial or cryptic in nature. So if they adopted runes, or used the concept to flesh out their native proto-writing, it would just be used to conceal knowledge like the Midewewin society did OTL with their proto-writing so not widely taught, known, or used.

 

[Hastings]

Realistically, unless Vinland really takes off as a settler colony, likely not that much. They just aren't terribly close to agrarian societies. There is dispute over exact timeline for northern expansion of corn, but my impression is the general consensus is around 1000 AD, corn was just moving into the Hudson Valley and Southern Ontario. Basically, L'Anse aux Meadows is nearly as far from agricultural societies as it is from Iceland. Given Vikings liked their boats, they may well make it that far occasionally. Enough contact for meaningful transfer to be likely to happen? Eh.

The thing is Newfoundland is a better place than Iceland, much less Greenland, with a native population of maybe a thousand or so. If it gets a farming settler colony off the ground it isn't going to die out, rather start metastasizing across the northeast of North America eventually given that 3% per year settler colony growth rate. I'm not sure too much cultural exchange will happen when they are few in number, and once you get past that, spread will be rapid. The Norse will still be in the process of spreading until the late 1400s, probably mostly Great Lakes, New England/Maritimes, both because it is close and because the agrarian population is not *that* dense, though with adventurers and pockets well beyond that.

Note that even Iceland was basically isolated from a lot of the European disease pool. It isn't going to do much for the natives unless Vinland builds up enough it manages to import diseases and has a large enough population for them to become endemic. But then at that point you are talking about the Settlement of the Americans (or North America anyway), just with a slightly smaller tech gap and rather earlier.

Horse riding and horses would be slow to spread. It is not good horse country anywhere nearby. Among western Vikings, horses were more a status thing than anything. Livestock spread could be a challenge, protein was not a particular problem even for the agrarian populations. Not sure how well textile spread is. Making textiles is *enormously* time-consuming, second only to farming, European women basically were doing something with that every free moment they had. Its just deerskins, etc work relatively well enough with the populations in the region.

In terms of Iron, the Vikings were mainly dealing with bog iron, which is simpler. Think iron ore use may not really happen. Obviously found in wetlands, my impression is less so in the south. Tidewater, Delmarva, NJ, southern New England, most of Canada east of the plains are where the relatively large amounts are. I expect the Cree and Obijiwa will have an explosion eventually at the expense of tribes to their south and west, bad land for farming so chance to pick up iron and not get overwhelmed by Norse settlers.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Honestly, probably not much. None of these changes would happen overnight. Trade would be limited with Amerindian societies, since on Newfoundland they have all the furs, timber, walrus tusks, and anything else they need (except maybe thralls). Meanwhile, many local Amerindians are so poor that their societies risk becoming dependent on Norse trading posts where they almost require the Norse to procure basic goods like kettles and axes and knives. There is no incentive to learn how they're made. Fortunately, the alcohol in Norse society is far weaker than in Early Modern Europe.

Which effectively mean that the Norse could interact with the Skraelings of Newfoundland and Canadian Maritimes like they did with the Saami in Northern Scandinavia, both Northern Norway and North Sweden. Settle limited pieces of flatter, more fertile land in coastal area. Grow some crops, brew beer, raise animals, smelt and smith iron, build boats and fish in sea. And leave the upcountry to the natives, trading with them. When more settlers arrive or children grow up, it will be easier to sail 200 km along the coast for another sweet spot on coast than walk 20 km uphill for rougher and worse land.
Eventually their string of widely scattered sweet spots on coast will reach more southerly regions where they do meet some maize growers. Like Lower St. Lawrence, and New England.

There was little need for additional protein in northeastern Indian societies--they had plenty in the form of shellfish, fish in general, and game.

Domestic animals have the advantage of being more reliable, not migrating away when needed. So domestic meat and cheese would still have reliability edge.

It was carbs and calories in general they lacked. Rye and barley might be viable, especially in areas that didn't/rarely grew corn like the Canadian Maritimes or northern New England in the early 2nd millennium.

In areas that don´t grow corn at all, the natives don´t have the basic skills and expectation to grow grains. But in the areas at the margin - where natives do grow corn but it is unreliable in cool summers - learning to grow barley and oats in addition to corn would be a great improvement of safety margins.

Not sure how well textile spread is. Making textiles is *enormously* time-consuming, second only to farming, European women basically were doing something with that every free moment they had. Its just deerskins, etc work relatively well enough with the populations in the region.

Compare middle Sweden (I mean north of the densely settled Svealand - rather Dalarna or Jämtland), or Finland. Sparsely settled, abundance of wild game and furs, whether big like elks or smaller like squirrels. Yet domestic animals could be and were grown - woollens were a supplement to furs. Plus domestic furs (sheep furs).
Or later Hudson Bay Company. The Indians of Rupert´s Land had furs for their own use and for export, yet they were willing to import woollen cloth.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Which effectively mean that the Norse could interact with the Skraelings of Newfoundland and Canadian Maritimes like they did with the Saami in Northern Scandinavia, both Northern Norway and North Sweden. Settle limited pieces of flatter, more fertile land in coastal area. Grow some crops, brew beer, raise animals, smelt and smith iron, build boats and fish in sea. And leave the upcountry to the natives, trading with them. When more settlers arrive or children grow up, it will be easier to sail 200 km along the coast for another sweet spot on coast than walk 20 km uphill for rougher and worse land.
Eventually their string of widely scattered sweet spots on coast will reach more southerly regions where they do meet some maize growers. Like Lower St. Lawrence, and New England.

Eventually, assuming said settlements don't die out from misfortune, violence, severe weather, etc. There would not be too many prospective settlers, so not too much reason for outmigration. And there are plenty of reasons it's better to cluster along the fjord the local godi lives rather than strike it out with your followers. For one, if the local natives turn on your farmstead, you can rally the residents of the nearby farmsteads to teach them a lesson and take back whatever they took (women/children, livestock, etc.).

Domestic animals have the advantage of being more reliable, not migrating away when needed. So domestic meat and cheese would still have reliability edge.

Outside of horses, there was surprisingly little spread of domestic animals among indigenous Americans that wasn't being directly mediated by Euroamericans. It did happen, like some Comanche did raise stolen cattle by the 1860s and the woolen textiles made from Navajo sheep have been a symbol of their culture for centuries, but wasn't too common (probably because the goods being traded and demanded were different). So if Vinland is still slated for death, odds are that cattle or sheep end up butchered and the animals traded meet the same fate. Although as I proposed, still possible if a large Metis class forms.

 

[Kerney]

Writing is another frequently-cited technology that might have traveled with the Norse- although most of the population would have been illiterate, so the chances of crossing over to the native people is much lower than it might seem.

Note on this. The vast majority of Norse were literate in Runic, which was popular and useful. We know this because in Norse sites rune are all over household items, like combs saying 'I belong to Sigyn' and property boundaries marked with stone reading something like 'no trespassing'.

It's also, with all the straight lines, it's easier to work into wood and stone than all that curvy Roman continental crap.

From our perspective, this is the Betamax of writing systems. But it seems ideal to transfer to NA societies.

 

[Jürgen]

It took 800 year for the use of iron to make it from Anatolia to Scandinavia. That was two regions connected through trade routes and honestly no more than a few months apart in travel time. Technology tend to spread very slowly in a pre-modern society.

 

[Umbral]

It is important to remember what an enormous population advantage agricultural societies have. Newfoundland is bigger than Ireland, and estimated to have supported a total of 750 to 1500 people in a time when Greenland carried 5000 Norse, and a big longship could take 120 warriors.

Societies that picked up agriculture tended to overrun non-agricultural ones with a bit of a population tsunami. We can see it happen in Europe, China and the middle east, archeologically and genetically. There were holdouts -the Baltic, the British Isles and areas that were climatically unsuited for agriculture. But all except the last held out long enough to adopt agriculture themselves, or got swamped.

The Norse also had a number of advantages that each individually totally revolutionized warfare:

Iron weapons, and the competition here was not bronze, it was wood and stone.
Horses, useful for communications and mobility as well as cavalry.
The stirrup.
And a sailing and navigation package that was the most advanced in the world at the time.

The nature of horses and sailing is that they accelerate communications, trade and the exchange of ideas.

It was half a millenium from Eric the Red to Columbus. Almost the same amount of time as Columbus to today.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

As I understand it Norse were already (partially?) Christianized by this point, so Catholic missionaries would likely be a pretty big part of any longer lived Vinland. Accordingly, the Americas may be a lot less alien to Europe come sustained contact.

 

[PrinceofApathy]

I am once again plugging Odinson's American Viking

 

[Arariboia Guamá]

Here's another possible important divergence: Pigs.

Not only it would permit the natives to sustain greater caloric efficiencies, but also would bring in diseases that would later result in greater native american immunity to european diseases.

It took 800 year for the use of iron to make it from Anatolia to Scandinavia. That was two regions connected through trade routes and honestly no more than a few months apart in travel time. Technology tend to spread very slowly in a pre-modern society.

The Portuguese in Brazil tried to prevent the natives from learning how to work with metals. There was even a law forbidding blacksmiths from taking native apprentices. However, one way or another, secret got out and spread around. Soon the Portuguese were meeting tribes who never saw a white man before, but already had iron implements. Horses also spread quite fast once the natives stopped being scary, see Comanche and Guaicurus.

I wouldn't underestimate Pre-Columbian trade routes. Mesoamerican materials were already found in the Marajó Island.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Here's another possible important divergence: Pigs.

Not only it would permit the natives to sustain greater caloric efficiencies, but also would bring in diseases that would later result in greater native american immunity to european diseases.

They're far more likely to go feral than have any native pig farmers. Also, pigs seem to have been rare in Greenland, probably because unlike cows or sheep, they didn't give milk or wool, so there would not be many available for Vinland settlers.

I highly doubt the potential of pigs to introduce new diseases given only a few centuries, or somehow be a more effective vector of disease than what already exists.

The Portuguese in Brazil tried to prevent the natives from learning how to work with metals. There was even a law forbidding blacksmiths from taking native apprentices. However, one way or another, secret got out and spread around. Soon the Portuguese were meeting tribes who never saw a white man before, but already had iron implements. Horses also spread quite fast once the natives stopped being scary, see Comanche and Guaicurus.

I wouldn't underestimate Pre-Columbian trade routes. Mesoamerican materials were already found in the Marajó Island.

But were they actually doing metalworking themselves? Iron goods proceeded any serious contact by many decades, sometimes over a century, thanks to native trade networks and incipient European trade. That's not quite metalworking.

 

[Arariboia Guamá]

They're far more likely to go feral than have any native pig farmers. Also, pigs seem to have been rare in Greenland, probably because unlike cows or sheep, they didn't give milk or wool, so there would not be many available for Vinland settlers.

I highly doubt the potential of pigs to introduce new diseases given only a few centuries, or somehow be a more effective vector of disease than what already exists.

What about chicken then?

But were they actually doing metalworking themselves? Iron goods proceeded any serious contact by many decades, sometimes over a century, thanks to native trade networks and incipient European trade. That's not quite metalworking.

Yes, they were. Its why the Portuguese did they best to avoid the natives learning it, they used to trade loads of metal tools and such to the natives.

 

[Kerney]

As I understand it Norse were already (partially?) Christianized by this point, so Catholic missionaries would likely be a pretty big part of any longer lived Vinland. Accordingly, the Americas may be a lot less alien to Europe come sustained contact.

The time they showed up was right at the transition in Norway and Iceland and the North Atlantic area. If you were to show up in 990, 90% of everyone would be pagan and there in is a very interesting description in one of the Greenland sagas about one Christian being the odd girl out when a Volva visits.

By 1010 most people were Christian, at least nominally and things were trending that way. The reign of Olaf Trygvason of Norway was key to this change, with Iceland collectively converting under threat of trade embargo and civil war for example (one the Pagans would have won initially).

So yes, the settlers were transitioning right at that moment. However, that transition is highly butterfly-able by literally decades of even a century or two and could be much more violent.

In fact, I think a very good PoD for a settler Norse colony probably not called Vinland would be a religious refugee colony led by motivated people who literally can't go home.

 

[Arkenfolm]

What about chicken then?

I'm not sure. It's not covered in the source I'm using which suggests chicken/chicken eggs were either a minor part of the diet or didn't preserve well archaeologically (apparently there are no known chicken remains in medieval Greenland). However, it is known Greenlanders harvested eggs from seabirds, including in rather remote areas, so maybe there weren't many chickens. A quick search claims that the oldest known remains of chickens in Iceland date to the 13th century and in Norway to around the same time (but not Viking Age Sweden, oddly). It might've been a cultural thing where raising chickens wasn't seen as important (which makes sense if seabird eggs are plentiful), or again, a minor part of the diet combined with bad archaeological preservation.

I'm working under the presumption that most of Vinland's settlers are from Greenland with a minority from Iceland and Norway, so I'm basing it off Greenland's people and lifeestyle.

Yes, they were. Its why the Portuguese did they best to avoid the natives learning it, they used to trade loads of metal tools and such to the natives.

Interesting. Without any further knowledge, I'd guess that was because the Brazilian natives were greater in number (even after epidemic decimated their numbers) and had a more organised society. Maybe also because of escaped slaves/maroons, some of whom were smiths and who mixed with the natives. Those would be the factors in Brazil that didn't exist in native North America, where the natives never mastered any metalworking after contact with Europeans, even though copper smithing was known in many regions. More relevant to Vinland, the nearest sedentary agricultural society is at the mouth of the St. Lawrence River far to the south.

 

[twovultures]

Outside of horses, there was surprisingly little spread of domestic animals among indigenous Americans that wasn't being directly mediated by Euroamericans. It did happen, like some Comanche did raise stolen cattle by the 1860s and the woolen textiles made from Navajo sheep have been a symbol of their culture for centuries, but wasn't too common (probably because the goods being traded and demanded were different). So if Vinland is still slated for death, odds are that cattle or sheep end up butchered and the animals traded meet the same fate. Although as I proposed, still possible if a large Metis class forms.

I think that we need to determine our timeline here to see what the effects of Native culture are going to be. How long this Vinland lasts matters for purposes of exposing Native Americans to European lifeways and giving them time to adapt without being overrun. Perhaps the colony could collapse in the early 1200's? Smallpox broke out in Iceland around that time, it could make its way to Vinland, devastate the European farming communities before dying out due to lack of new people to infect, and the devastated surviving settlers either pack up and leave for Iceland, or merge with the Native peoples and create Metis communities.

2 centuries is a long time. The small initial settlement of Norse means that their colony does not get big enough to overwhelm the Native American communities outside of their immediate vicinity (a bit like the Acadians IOTL) but their ability to trade textiles and iron tools makes them an economic center for the northeast, creating a lot of opportunities for cultural exchange over 2 centuries. @SealTheRealDeal is correct that Catholicism is also going to be a factor here; I think we will see missionaries introducing animal husbandry to the Natives, as well as European agriculture which, unlike maize agriculture, is viable in the maritimes (OTL's Kennebec river were the rough northern boundary of maize agriculture IIRC).