Effects of an Earlier United Italy?

[Emperor Casey]

What would the effects be if Italy were to be united at an earlier point than it was? You can choose who or when going back to Rome living if you choose but preferably later than that. What would its relationship be with Europe and what territory would it try to take for itself and what could it hold? Perhaps the Venetian territory down the Adriatic and in Greece?

 

[BBadolato]

The effects large depend on when and how. Anything in the Medieval period would either require an Italy that breaks from the HRE, or would have to deal with France and Aragon down the line.

 

[profxyz]

I think it really does depend on who unites Italy. If Venice or Genoa do it (very unlikely of course, don't know why they would go through all that trouble) then we should expect Eastern Med interests to be considered part and parcel of the united Italy's interests. If it's the Papal States then they might be more interested in European religious matters, like a second Habsburg Spain.

However, the defensive imperatives of a united Italy (especially considering that as a peninsula, there is a lot to defend) probably are the same for any united Italy no matter the government it is under, and these imperatives likely include controlling the Alpine passes, the Adriatic coast, the Malta Channel, Corsica and Sardinia, and Tunisia. Greece is probably required if Italy is to have any Eastern Mediterranean aspirations.

This means that a united Italy is almost guaranteed to cause trouble for the Byzantine Empire and the North African sultanates/caliphates, as well as being a potent rival to the Spanish at sea. On land Italy might have to play a fine diplomatic game between France and Germany/Austria, while extending influence in the Balkans in order to create a 'buffer zone' for its Adriatic holdings. Irredentism will always be an issue because of the legacy of the Romans.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

The effects large depend on when and how. Anything in the Medieval period would either require an Italy that breaks from the HRE, or would have to deal with France and Aragon down the line.

And I think a united Italy would make the Byzantines nervous. Doubly so if it's one of their rivals that does it.

 

[BBadolato]

And I think a united Italy would make the Byzantines nervous. Doubly so if it's one of their rivals that does it.

That also depends on what is Italy, If were are talking the whole peninsula then yes, but the Kingdom of Italy under the HRE didn't include the area of The Two Sicilies. Then again it all goes back to the question who is unifying Italy and what time period.

 

[Tjakari]

Is there any way for the Lombard kings to maintain control over the kingdom and maybe expand into Roman Italy?
The problem with the HRE comes into play once a Frank is crowned emperor after conquering Lombardia, no lombard conquest and the problem of a legitimate ruler in Italy is no longer a problem on the front door of Italy.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Is there any way for the Lombard kings to maintain control over the kingdom and maybe expand into Roman Italy?
The problem with the HRE comes into play once a Frank is crowned emperor after conquering Lombardia, no lombard conquest and the problem of a legitimate ruler in Italy is no longer a problem on the front door of Italy.

It's been a while since I delved into Lombard history, but it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get the Lombards to have hegemony over Italy. At least one of the Lombard rulers, Luitprand I believe (will have to check) came very close. The largest problem is that the Kings of the Lombards had a fairly easy time in cementing their control over northern Italy, but had to be exceptionally strong to bring the southern most duchies benevento anf Spolento under their thumb. These southern duchies were seperates from the rest of thekingdom by the byzantine Exarch of Ravenna. Once the Exarch was diminished it became easier for the Lombard kings yo try to exercize their authority over most of the peninsula; unfortunately, by that point, the Pope was able to make his alliance with the Franks.

Another problem is that the Lombard dukes were very independent minded, even by the standards of other dukes for this era. These are a group that, after the assassination of their first king in Italy, decided not to elect another for several decades because ain't no body got time to deal with a meddling King. You also had the constantly struggles between the Arian and Catholic parties in the kingdom, and all of this combined to create for some massive instability during times of weak rulers.

If you look at the law codes and the history, it actually seems that the kings were cwntralizing their authority towards the end and creating a more stable state; but then the franks came ...

 

[Emperor Casey]

Would it be possible for some break off of Italy following the Byzantine conquest? Either by it just simply breaking away and maintaining itself or another king taking the throne and just ruling the same territory?

 

[Tjakari]

Would it be possible for some break off of Italy following the Byzantine conquest?

Anything that breaks away directly after the Gothic War will just wither away into the pages of history, the land was depleted, thousands displaces, cities depopulated, agriculture disrupted. Italy was the last place an independent state could pop up of it's own authority, the only states to rule in Italy ruled at least nominally in the name of a foreign ruler or were invaders independent of Italia itself.

So I was thinking, could you have the Franks convert to Arianism just as the other germanic tribes did when they invaded the west instead of staying pagan until catholicism was on the upswing? That would maybe hold off the Pope having favorable relations with them long enough for the lombards.

 

[Tjakari]

Just a side question, why didn't the Lombard kings try to butter up the Popes,, seems like bad policy to have someone who has the authority to make arrangements with foreign states right under your nose. You see in OTL how that turned out for them, did no one have the foresight or am I oversimplifying a much more complicated political scene?

 

[Deleted member 67076]

When are we talking of unification? You could probably have the Normans unify most of Italy if they turned their attention to it instead of wasting their time raiding Greece and Tunisia. If so, that could really turn into a powerhouse.

So I was thinking, could you have the Franks convert to Arianism just as the other germanic tribes did when they invaded the west instead of staying pagan until catholicism was on the upswing? That would maybe hold off the Pope having favorable relations with them long enough for the lombards.

No. The population they settled into was already mostly Nicean Orthodox. Converting to Arianism would just further alienate them and undermine the Franks would be authority.

And I think a united Italy would make the Byzantines nervous. Doubly so if it's one of their rivals that does it.

This really depends on who's in charge in Italy and in Rhomania.

 

[Tjakari]

When are we talking of unification? You could probably have the Normans unify most of Italy if they turned their attention to it instead of wasting their time raiding Greece and Tunisia. If so, that could really turn into a powerhouse.

To the when, it's any time you fancy. I think Ostrogoth Italy or Belisarius ends the Gothic War early is the easiest sans keeping the West from fragmenting. I just went with Lombards because I find the prospect interesting.
Wouldn't Normans going into Northern Italy call the attention of the Emperor in Germany, it's not as if the office of western emperor is devoid of authority at this point, he could mount an attack on the Normans. Besides, I like Norman Tunisia.

Edit: Is there a policy on double posting?

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Wouldn't Normans going into Northern Italy call the attention of the Emperor in Germany, it's not as if the office of western emperor is devoid of authority at this point, he could mount an attack on the Normans. Besides, I like Norman Tunisia.

Edit: Is there a policy on double posting?

The conquest would have to be a bit gradual, with the initial push from say Roger onward focusing on taking the Pentopolis, Sardinia, Malta and other areas that are technically outside the HRE's jurisdiction until the Norman-Italian state is strong enough to fight the HRE on it own. It'd be a bit of a balancing act, trying to amass as much territory without being noticed by the powers that be until its too late.

 

[Tjakari]

The conquest would have to be a bit gradual, with the initial push from say Roger onward focusing on taking the Pentopolis, Sardinia, Malta and other areas that are technically outside the HRE's jurisdiction until the Norman-Italian state is strong enough to fight the HRE on it own. It'd be a bit of a balancing act, trying to amass as much territory without being noticed by the powers that be until its too late.

I'm assuming in this TL the normans don't sack Rome and stay on the Pope's good side.