Effect of Irish Home Rule on England?

[broken-arrow]

Suppose the UK manages to successfully implement Irish HR in 1914, say by avoiding entry to WW1 and then dealing with the ensuing unrest from the UVF, Anglo-Irish army officers, Unionists etc. How does this effect the constitutional settlement and question of powers for England when it all settles down?

With Irish MPs still in the HoC and HR on the way for Scotland and probably eventually Wales, would this bring forward the West Lothian question early? Would this need a form of English Home Rule? Or would English devolution occur in a different format given its size?

Of course Ireland probably would become a dominion eventually in this scenario, assuming a continued peaceful transfer of power, but until that point what is the effect on England?

 

[Sarthak]

Suppose the UK manages to successfully implement Irish HR in 1914, say by avoiding entry to WW1 and then dealing with the ensuing unrest from the UVF, Anglo-Irish army officers, Unionists etc. How does this effect the constitutional settlement and question of powers for England when it all settles down?

With Irish MPs still in the HoC and HR on the way for Scotland and probably eventually Wales, would this bring forward the West Lothian question early? Would this need a form of English Home Rule? Or would English devolution occur in a different format given its size?

Of course Ireland probably would become a dominion eventually in this scenario, assuming a continued peaceful transfer of power, but until that point what is the effect on England?

The end goal according to most Liberal Party members at the time was a Federal United Kingdom.

 

[broken-arrow]

The end goal according to most Liberal Party members at the time was a Federal United Kingdom.

With England having its own parliament? Because that would surely run into the same problems as current issues with english devolution of England simply being far to big to be devolved as a single unit?

 

[Sarthak]

With England having its own parliament? Because that would surely run into the same problems as current issues with english devolution of England simply being far to big to be devolved as a single unit?

Wasn't considered as big a problem back then. The idea was basically Irish Home Rule followed by Scottish Home Rule followed by Welsh Home Rule followed by English Home Rule, and thus creating a true 'federal' UK.

 

[The Ranger]

I read this as Ireland ruling the UK rather then the other way around.

 

[Dr Dee]

If the F.U.K. came about (new name required, pronto…), I wonder if a devolved English parliament with full law making powers would need to be underpinned by regional assemblies.

 

[Catsmate]

The end goal according to most Liberal Party members at the time was a Federal United Kingdom.

And an elected Senate.

 

[broken-arrow]

If the F.U.K. came about (new name required, pronto…), I wonder if a devolved English parliament with full law making powers would need to be underpinned by regional assemblies.

I suppose it would have to be given the size of England but i'm unsure what form that would take. I know Churchill proposed regional parliaments as an alternative to an English parliament and i suppose they might've worked as regional bodies too

 

[yulzari1]

Irish, Scottish and Welsh Home Rule are all about these as nations within the Union. English regional parliaments go entirely against this. It demeans the English as not being a nation like the other parts of the Union. If English Home Rule were to gain public traction it would have to be as nation too. If the size of England is too much of an issue then the answer is for England to leave the Union and set up shop on it’s own. There has never been a taste for English regional parliaments.

 

[Hood]

Irish, Scottish and Welsh Home Rule are all about these as nations within the Union. English regional parliaments go entirely against this. It demeans the English as not being a nation like the other parts of the Union. If English Home Rule were to gain public traction it would have to be as nation too. If the size of England is too much of an issue then the answer is for England to leave the Union and set up shop on it’s own. There has never been a taste for English regional parliaments.

This. England wont be happy getting chopped to bits while the other nations of the union (ig with a sort of exception for Ireland if its partitioned) stay as one. Perhaps if scotland wales and ireland were similarly divided by region or province, but it's very difficult to justify given the population of some.
Without descending too much into modern politics, EVEL represents a sort of ad hoc federalism for England within the UK.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

If the F.U.K. came about (new name required, pronto…), I wonder if a devolved English parliament with full law making powers would need to be underpinned by regional assemblies.

Once seen, it can't be forgotten!
For English regions, Northumbria, Mercia, Wessex, Sussex and London should do. Yorkshire and Cornwall may choose to disagree with my simplistic view.

 

[Sarthak]

A north south devolution was favoured by the liberals and labour in the 1910s in England ....... To the general apathy of the populace which basically meant if you do it I don't care if you don't do it I don't care either. Other than that regional parliament's in England seem a very hard ask.

 

[Sarthak]

And an elected Senate.

Eh didn't Asquith want to add an indirectly elected senate? None of the liberals seriously proposed abolishing the house of lords, would be stupid considering around half to a third of them were peers.

 

[white crowe]

Irish, Scottish and Welsh Home Rule are all about these as nations within the Union. English regional parliaments go entirely against this. It demeans the English as not being a nation like the other parts of the Union. If English Home Rule were to gain public traction it would have to be as nation too. If the size of England is too much of an issue then the answer is for England to leave the Union and set up shop on it’s own. There has never been a taste for English regional parliaments.

I've always thought the objection was the other way around i.e. that Wales and Scotland found it demeaning to be made equivalent to English regions.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

I've always thought the objection was the other way around i.e. that Wales and Scotland found it demeaning to be made equivalent to English regions.

Bit of each I think.

The other issue is that IF You give England Home Rule, possibly with a regional tier of administration along with unitary local authorities.......

What is left for Westminster? Defence, Foreign and Trade relations plus running the Empire while that exists. Add macroeconomic policy once budgets (and interest rates) became policy tools rather than a way of retaining the Gold Standard.

Is that enough for it?

 

[GullibleCynic]

Is that enough for it?

There would also be fostering interregion cooperation and settling inerregion disputes. Infrastructure projects, like roads, train tracks, electricity, internet (when that happens), could all benefit from federal oversight. There is social services as well, health care being the one that comes to mind

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

There would also be fostering interregion cooperation and settling inerregion disputes. Infrastructure projects, like roads, train tracks, electricity, internet (when that happens), could all benefit from federal oversight. There is social services as well, health care being the one that comes to mind

Yes, though I think social care and healthcare would be devolved responsibilities. Is it enough to keep Westminster busy??

😅

 

[GullibleCynic]

Yes, though I think social care and healthcare would be devolved responsibilities. Is it enough to keep Westminster busy??

😅

There could be a mix. For example, the devolved parliaments provide half the funding for something like health care or education, and the federal government the other half. Then there is a lengthy negotiation process: what needs to be standardized country-wide, what should be left locally. Resource procurement, interoperable records, transferable credentials. I think there is more than enough things to do if you want there to be. Governments tend to increase over time as people expect more of them. This can be especially convoluted if it is not clear where residual power lies.

 

[vizzer]

One thing about splitting up the UK in the early 1900s is that there are a lot more centres of income to be compared to London.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Bit of each I think.

The other issue is that IF You give England Home Rule, possibly with a regional tier of administration along with unitary local authorities.......

What is left for Westminster? Defence, Foreign and Trade relations plus running the Empire while that exists. Add macroeconomic policy once budgets (and interest rates) became policy tools rather than a way of retaining the Gold Standard.

Is that enough for it?

Don't forget that the Empire won't run itself.
Were there many other federal states at the time that could provide examples of who does what at which level of government?
I can only think of Australia, Canada, USA and Germany.
Edit. And I can't see Britain taking a cue from any of them.