Effect of an early Israel on Nazi strategy & WWII

[Snake Featherston]

You're still setting up the question as a binary between a revolting, anti-British Israel, or a Palestine Mandate with exactly the same lukewarm policies towards the Zionists as OTL.

But what about a Dominion of Israel, or an Israel Free State in the Commonwealth. Do concessions to the Zionists within the framework of the commonwealth automatically spark the Indian revolution?

By your logic, why didn't the Indians react to the establishment of the Irish Free State with all-out revolution? Why didn't the granting of Dominion status to weak little New Zealand cause the Indians make demands for far-reaching self-government and fight on until London conceded on all points?

Why didn't the the British retrenchment and formal independence for Egypt, Jordan and Iraq in the 1920s provoke the instant Indian revolution you are talking about?

The Indian reaction to concessions to the Zionists, under duress or by negotiation, is indeed an interesting question.

However, how did the Indians (and London) see the racial pecking order at the time? No doubt the Indians didn't think that white European superiority was natural or right, but many took said dominance as a fact of life. Is Zionist success vis-a-vis London considered an example of Asians winning a victory that Indians should logically expect to emulate, or would it be seen as irrelevant to India as it is just a bargain between two different sets of Europeans, with the Indians knowing that London would be willing to hammer their rebelliousness much harder than any white man's rebelliousness?

That's because for 1930s-era Britain (and the PODs must be at the time of the Arab Revolt for it to reflect Nazis and WWII without butterflying the rest) it is a matter of such security. It's significant that in contrast to the other Mandates the British never remotely gave any independence to either the Palestinians or the Zionists IOTL in the Mandate of Palestine. There's no amount of polite words that change this, we're talking Menachem Begin tactics as a default, and how Israel does this without the Palestinians also benefiting from it is another good question.

 

[WeisSaul]

An early Israel would lead to an earlier war against the Jews in Palestine. Israel would be smaller for sure, but it'd make land gains, particularly in the Golan and on the Jordan river. I'd think it'd either be Pro-UK and France or Pro-Italy (so long as it is anti-German)

Considering Hitler stated that he'd ship the Jews out on luxury cruises so long as they were out of Germany, I could see a German government sponsored relocation program that would massively increase Israel's population by the hundreds of thousands. Though I doubt he would have sent them off in luxury...

When WW2 breaks out, with no British troops in Palestine, the Arabs will likely succeed in taking over and merging Iraq and Syria (including Lebanon). Not sure about Kuwait though. Considering it was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who wanted to lead this movement, I could see the Palestinian state joining in.

Eventually this Pan-Arab state, which is allied with Germany, would attack Israel and Transjordan. An Israel with control over the Golan holds them out from the north, and proceeds to be slowly beaten back in the south. Britain and France use a newly allied Israel as a launching pad to retake Mesopotamia, and then things will really heat up in the holy land.

 

[Alex1guy]

Just out of curiosity, what were the Nazi's views on Arabs? Horrible I imagine based on everyone else, but what was their "destiny" in a Nazi world?

 

[jmc247]

Just out of curiosity, what were the Nazi's views on Arabs? Horrible I imagine based on everyone else, but what was their "destiny" in a Nazi world?

What group of Nazis? Himmler had nothing other then positive feelings for Arabs and and pushed for and succeeded in having Bosnian Muslim SS Divisions created. Other leaders of the SS were certainly not so favorable to them.

If Himmler has his way you would have Germans on top of the social pecking order in Eurasia and Africa with Arabs being considered equal to that of say of Italians. If lets just say majority opinion in the Nazi Party won out they would be considered and treated below Italians, French or any other major ethnic, national or religious group not marked for death. That said the Nazi Party certainly wasn't a democracy, but who leads it long term isn't a sure thing either.

 

[WeisSaul]

The Nazis wanted to concentrate all of the Jews in one place (Israel) and snuff them all at once. As such supporting an Arab holocaust against the Jews by supporting a Pan-Arab Syria-Iraq state's victory against the British.

Also supporting the anti-british Arabs means cutting off one of Britain's more important oil sources. A Turkey with Axis forces to the North, West, and South could be more likely to join the Allies. Especially considering the Turks had their eyes on the Dodecanese islands.

 

[MerryPrankster]

I read in the article about Eichmann in Wikipedia that he at one point visited Palestine to inquire about Jewish settlement there.

If there is an Israel in existence during the Nazi era, the Nazis might at least look more seriously into exporting their Jews there.

 

[WeisSaul]

I read in the article about Eichmann in Wikipedia that he at one point visited Palestine to inquire about Jewish settlement there.

If there is an Israel in existence during the Nazi era, the Nazis might at least look more seriously into exporting their Jews there.

Like I said in my above post, the plan was to concentrate all the Jews in Palestine, and then slaughter them all. Allying with the Arab nationalists would have suited those interests well.

 

[The Red]

"Indeed had an independent Jewish state existed in Palestine during the war, the fate of the Jews may have been very different, but not in the way imagine here: Hitler might well have made its conquest and destruction a much higher priority than it was actually given. Rommel had only ten divisions in North Africa; with the destruction of Israel and the extermination of perhaps 1 million Jews there as his goal, Hitler might have agreed to give him twenty, thirty or whatever number of Axis divisions was necessary for a successful drive through Egypt (incidentally seizing the Suez Canal) to Palestine,"

Hitler sending 30 divisions to starve to death in North Africa would have been fantastic for the Allies.