Eden's intentions for post-Nasser Egypt - what were they?

[Maponus]

I'm currently researching for an essay about the British Empire in the Middle East and the impact Suez had on it, and I haven't find anything yet about what Eden's plan was other than to "depose Nasser." Well, that could mean anything. Anyone know what would have happened?

If there's any evidence he wanted to bring the monarchy back, please direct me to it because it would help prove one of my theories.

I wouldn't be averse to knowing what the French and Israelis thought should happen either, even though the essay is about Britain specifically.

 

[Kaiser K]

I don't really think Eden had much of a plan for what to do with Egypt after the deposing of Nasser, it always came across to me that Britain and France went into the Suez Crisis with no real consensus on what to exactly do once the fighting was set and done; just that they wanted to depose Nasser and ensure continued British control over the Canal.

 

[TehBoss]

I don't really think Eden had much of a plan for what to do with Egypt after the deposing of Nasser, it always came across to me that Britain and France went into the Suez Crisis with no real consensus on what to exactly do once the fighting was set and done; just that they wanted to depose Nasser and ensure continued British control over the Canal.

I remember reading in one of the old Suez Crisis threads that Eden was going to support a palace coup by Naguib (one of Nasser's old political rivals and even President of Egypt who got marginalized early after the Free Officers' Coup).

Whether Naguib was the unscrupulous type or would have told Eden to stuff it even if he was no fan of Nasser is another question.

 

[Realpolitik]

He had plans?

 

[deathscompanion1]

He was ill at the time. Very ill. Also terrified that Nasser was literally the next Hitler and potentially equally dangerous. Whatever he had planned out would doubtless pay very little attention to realities on the ground.

 

[LHB]

I remember reading in one of the old Suez Crisis threads that Eden was going to support a palace coup by Naguib (one of Nasser's old political rivals and even President of Egypt who got marginalized early after the Free Officers' Coup).

Whether Naguib was the unscrupulous type or would have told Eden to stuff it even if he was no fan of Nasser is another question.

That was never going to happen. By 1956 Naguib was in prison, the Muslim Brotherhood (who were major supporters of Naguib) was suppressed, and Nasser had finished cleaning house two years earlier.

The entire plan for the Suez War by the British and the French was pure underpants gnomes. They really had no clue what they were doing and were acting like it was 1890 when British gunships shelling the coast was enough to compel obedience.

 

[Riain]

One reason for the British to not sell arms to Egypt which pushed them to the Soviet Union was nasser's vocal public opposition to the Bagdad pact. One thing that eden would want is full public support for cento from nassers replacement, and this would presumably bring Egypt back into the British orbit and result in numerous defense and other projects.

 

[Simon]

I'm currently researching for an essay about the British Empire in the Middle East and the impact Suez had on it, and I haven't find anything yet about what Eden's plan was other than to "depose Nasser." Well, that could mean anything. Anyone know what would have happened?

They generally expected him to be overthrown in an internal palace coup and someone like General Muhammad Naguib to be brought back into power. The UK had already previously signed an agreement with Egypt for a phased withdrawal and handover of the Canal Company to the Egyptians but Nasser jumped the gun, likewise the British weren't too keen on his calls for Arab nationalism, with himself in charge of it of course, and funding for opponents of various regional governments the British worked with. They wanted to get in, have Nasser toppled by the dissatisfied Egyptian factions, get the new government to agree to abide by the agreement on the Canal Company, have them either support or at least not oppose CENTO and then get out as quickly as possible whilst dropping it all on the UN's lap.

If there's any evidence he wanted to bring the monarchy back, please direct me to it because it would help prove one of my theories.

As far as I'm aware they were in absolutely no way, shape or form thinking of trying to bring back the monarchy, everyone knew that it was completely discredited by that point. It would of also likely entailed an lengthy ground deployment which was the absolutely last thing they wanted. Their main aim was getting rid of Nasser for a replacement who was hopefully much less invested in stirring up the region, even the fuss over the Canal Company came second to that.

 

[Simon]

Apologies for the double-post but people got in whilst I was typing.

By 1956 Naguib was in prison...

House arrest IIRC.

The entire plan for the Suez War by the British and the French was pure underpants gnomes. They really had no clue what they were doing and were acting like it was 1890 when British gunships shelling the coast was enough to compel obedience.

IIRC when the invasion first started Nasser himself was scared of how the Egyptian public was going to react and feared for his position, to test the waters he went out in an unmarked car with blacked out windows to see what things were like. Rather than the streets being in ferment he was surprised to find the public backing him which emboldened him to react in the way he did. If Nasser himself had fears of how the Egyptian public might react it's not exactly completely crazy for the UK and France looking in from the outside to have thought things were going to shake out that way as well. Now that's not to say that the operation wasn't dicey on several levels but to call it 'pure underpants gnomes' is to my mind rather too reliant on 20/20 hindsight.

... just that they wanted to depose Nasser and ensure continued British control over the Canal.

Except that the British had already agreed to hand over control of the Canal Company, Egypt already owned the actual Canal IIRC, with the Anglo–Egyptian Agreement of 1954 which Nasser himself had signed. It was never about long-term occupation or turning Egypt back into a quasi-colony. It was Nasser breaking the agreement to help prop up his personal popularity, actions supporting groups in Algeria, Yemen, Jordan etc. and opposition to CENTO that alarmed the UK and France and had them see him as a dangerously destabilising influence.

 

[black angel]

Except that the British had already agreed to hand over control of the Canal Company, Egypt already owned the actual Canal IIRC, with the Anglo–Egyptian Agreement of 1954 which Nasser himself had signed. It was never about long-term occupation or turning Egypt back into a quasi-colony. It was Nasser breaking the agreement to help prop up his personal popularity, actions supporting groups in Algeria, Yemen, Jordan etc. and opposition to CENTO that alarmed the UK and France and had them see him as a dangerously destabilising influence.

it was a widely held and totally wrong, believe that Egyptian support was key to the FLN uprising in Algeria, Paris wrongly saw a shadowy Pan-North Africa/Pan-Arab nationalist plot being directed by Nasser from Cairo, as it turned out his real help was rather minimum and the FLN was very disappointed in Nasser, but a mix of Nasser's own bluster, general pan-Arab statements form the FLN, and racist blindness that couldn't understand how "their Arabs" could rebel made France obsessed with the idea of Nasser as the mastermind of the Algerian War

which is why France did it, that and France's close relationship with Israel at the time

the Israelis did it for a number of reasons, first David Ben-Gurion believed that an Arab Atatürk (his phrase) that would unite the Arab world and as a result destroy Israel, Nasser in his mind filled the bill and scared the living crap out of Ben-Gurion through out his time as Prime Minster (and past it, Ben-Gurion called Yitzhak Rabin to his home on the eve of the 1967 war and yelled at him that the nation would be destroyed in a war) secondly was the ever escalating number of border raids and terrorist attacks coming from every border Israel had, as the biggest and leading Arab power Egypt's funding and emotional support for fedayeen was all important, in the lead up to the The Sinai War attacks on Israel were nearly weekly, and finally Nasser's extreme language about Israel and the Jews, basically saying over and over in public he and Egypt planned to war with Israel (they were already blockading Israel, an Act of War) and wipe it out, murder or force them out, I don't remember if he said this in 1956 or 1967 but "As for the survivors (Israelis survivors from a war), if there are any, the boats will be waiting" for a generation who had just gone through the holocaust to have the leader of their biggest neighbor talking this way, was terrifying

 

[Simon]

The Israelis did it for a number of reasons, first David Ben-Gurion believed that an Arab Atatürk (his phrase) that would unite the Arab world and as a result destroy Israel, Nasser in his mind filled the bill and scared the living crap out of Ben-Gurion through out his time as Prime Minster...

Well in Nasser's mind Nasser fitted that bill as well.

... and finally Nasser's extreme language about Israel and the Jews, basically saying over and over in public he and Egypt planned to war with Israel (they were already blockading Israel, an Act of War)...

IIRC the same thing as in 1967 when he was making all kinds of loud threats and demanded that the UN peacekeeper leave the Sinai which he never thought they'd agree to, only for them to actually vacate the peninsula and suddenly leave him in the rather awkward position of having to actually follow through on all his grandiose statements when the military wasn't ready yet. Whoops.

 

[black angel]

IIRC the same thing as in 1967 when he was making all kinds of loud threats and demanded that the UN peacekeeper leave the Sinai which he never thought they'd agree to, only for them to actually vacate the peninsula and suddenly leave him in the rather awkward position of having to actually follow through on all his grandiose statements when the military wasn't ready yet. Whoops.

a big part of the lead up to the War was a power struggle between Nasser and Field Marshal Amer, his best friend, as a matter of fact, Nasser wanted UNEF removed from the border, but kept in Gaza and Sharm el Sheikh, Amer didn't, when Nasser read the letter sent to the UN to removed the force he was upset since it said "remove all the forces on the soil of the UAR" rather than the more vague "redeploy these forces" and asked for the massager to be called back but was told it was too late (again Amer) Nasser hoped to clarify at a meeting with UNSG U Thant, but A) fearful of Amer's total control of the military, B) being unwilling to seem weak he couldn't openly ask, and in U Thant mind, the UNEF couldn't be changed, it was all or nothing, once Egyptian consent for some part of the force was pulled, it was pulled for all of it, and of course the second the Egyptians turned the UN posts in Gaza over to the Palestinians the shooting started, likewise once the Egyptian flag was up in Sharm el Sheikh the straits of Tiran was closed to all Israeli bound shipping (Nasser basically had no way of saying no to Amer about a blockade once UNEF was gone)

 

[Realpolitik]

IIRC the same thing as in 1967 when he was making all kinds of loud threats and demanded that the UN peacekeeper leave the Sinai which he never thought they'd agree to, only for them to actually vacate the peninsula and suddenly leave him in the rather awkward position of having to actually follow through on all his grandiose statements when the military wasn't ready yet. Whoops.

Nasser failed to understand how a bunch of Holocaust survivors would interpret his rhetoric, to be honest.

 

[Simon]

Nasser failed to understand how a bunch of Holocaust survivors would interpret his rhetoric, to be honest.

Always amazes me how some people can be incredibly clever and yet also incredibly dumb.

 

[Realpolitik]

Always amazes me how some people can be incredibly clever and yet also incredibly dumb.

Khrushchev, Kennedy, LBJ, Nasser, Sadat, Meir, Nixon, Brezhnev, Assad, that seems to sum up so many people in that era.

EDIT:

Sadly, even in their flaws, they are giants compared to the midgets of today, to be honest.

 

[black angel]

Nasser failed to understand how a bunch of Holocaust survivors would interpret his rhetoric, to be honest.

in the aftermath of the war Egypt declared that "all Jews are Zionists and Enemies" expelled 25,000 of them and stole all their assets, 1,000 Jews were jailed, this after bombings, beatings and murders against Jews all that went uninvestigated by the police, Nasser was backing up his words with deeds,(in the eyes of the Israeli public) which is also true for the Syrians as well, and you know the rest of the Arab world, so the Israeli leaders where hearing exterminationist rhetoric from the leaders of countries where, ether the state was officially anti-semitic or where popular mob anti-Semitism and violence being caused, supported and allowed by the state was making life for Jews there unlivable, all just after the holocaust.

I mean the stuff happening to the Jews in Arab countries looked a lot like what was happening in Germany in the 1930s and the Arab leaders were talking about the Jews in Nazi terms, fun story in 1954, Anwar Sadat, penned an open letter to Hitler, in which he expressed his hope that Hitler was still alive some where in the world and thanking him in his efforts to free the world of evil world Jewry.....

just to be clear I don't think the Arab world would have done a second holocaust of industrial murder, I think its pretty easy to see why given what they'd lived through and what was going on and being said why a lot of Israelis thought that something like that would be the result of total Arab victory in War.

 

[Realpolitik]

in the aftermath of the war Egypt declared that "all Jews are Zionists and Enemies" expelled 25,000 of them and stole all their assets, 1,000 Jews were jailed, this after bombings, beatings and murders against Jews all that went uninvestigated by the police, Nasser was backing up his words with deeds,(in the eyes of the Israeli public) which is also true for the Syrians as well, and you know the rest of the Arab world, so the Israeli leaders where hearing exterminationist rhetoric from the leaders of countries where, ether the state was officially anti-semitic or where popular mob anti-Semitism and violence being caused, supported and allowed by the state was making life for Jews there unlivable, all just after the holocaust.

I mean the stuff happening to the Jews in Arab countries looked a lot like what was happening in Germany in the 1930s and the Arab leaders were talking about the Jews in Nazi terms, fun story in 1954, Anwar Sadat, penned an open letter to Hitler, in which he expressed his hope that Hitler was still alive some where in the world and thanking him in his efforts to free the world of evil world Jewry.....

just to be clear I don't think the Arab world would have done a second holocaust of industrial murder, I think its pretty easy to see why given what they'd lived through and what was going on and being said why a lot of Israelis thought that something like that would be the result of total Arab victory in War.

No, of course not. The situation was completely different pre-Yom Kippur War and Nixon/Kissinger. That precisely why I'm pissed off at Likud-they want us to believe it is still 1970 and the Black September.

It's pretty easy to see why the Israelis didn't trust anybody and they decided eventually to build a nuke. The Middle East is still not a nice place, but better Hamas than Soviet armed Egyptian legions.