Eastern Orthodox Poland?
- Thread starter catboy637
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mowque
Banned
I had recently read that Poland was fiercely Roman Catholic.quote]
You just found this out?
Yes, I don't follow Polish history well.I had recently read that Poland was fiercely Roman Catholic.quote]
You just found this out?
Well, you could make Mieszko, first christian prince of Poland, to convert to christianity Orthodox style. However, it is not very probable. Mieszko decided to choose Roman Catholicism because he wanted to secure his country against Germans pushing from west (that was one of his reasons). He had noticed that pagan western Slaves were falling and knew soon he would face similar problems, since he was pushing west, especially in Pomerania. By becoming a christian he gained some protection ofthe Catholic Church. I'm simplifying here, but that was mainly it. Orthodox Christianity couldn't have helped him in in that way. Besides, at that time (966) the closest Orthodox country was Byzantium - a little too far, while Roman Catholics were quite close.
After that time, I don't know if it was possible. Perhaps conquest of Poland by Russian princes, but would it be Poland?
After that time, I don't know if it was possible. Perhaps conquest of Poland by Russian princes, but would it be Poland?
Didn't the Polish kings invade parts of the Ukraine in the 16th century and create the Ukranian Catholic church (Brest)? Also I think I remember that the Poles liked to Polish-ify wherever they travelled. Perhaps this created a mix-up of Roman and Orthodox liturgy (or a clash between the two).
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IIRC, disciples or converts of Cyril and Methodius, traveling from Bohemia, made significant inroads in converting the Vistulans to Greek-rite Christianity. So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine them converting the Polans as well, leading to an Orthodox Poland.
Hashasheen
Banned
I just found out because of this thread!I had recently read that Poland was fiercely Roman Catholic.quote]
You just found this out?
Originally posted by rcduggan
Yes and no. First of all, convertion of Vistulans wasn't exactly voluntary. Prince of Vistulans was forced to convert after his land was conquered by the Great Moravia. With the fall of Great Moravia the Greek rite (or rather Slavic rite, since Cyril and Methodius used slavic language in their liturgy) lost powerful protector. Meanwhile, the Roman rite had behind it power of Holy Roman Empire steadily expanding to east. There are reasons to believe, that Slavic rite survived on Polish lands till Boleslaus the Great or even longer, but it didn't stan a chance against the Roman rite.
But let's assume that after the fall of Great Moravia some energetic Orthodox bishop from Cracow (or even archbishop - there is a theory that a last archbishop of Moravia, Goraz, found refuge in Cracow) started christianisation of Polans. Mieszko would have had the same dilemma he had IOTL (if he wasn't butterflied away). Slavic rite wasn't recognized by the Roman Church, at this time and place led mostly by Germans. Orthodox Christianity wouldn't have helped him against German knights. A heretic was even worse than a pagan.
Yes and no. First of all, convertion of Vistulans wasn't exactly voluntary. Prince of Vistulans was forced to convert after his land was conquered by the Great Moravia. With the fall of Great Moravia the Greek rite (or rather Slavic rite, since Cyril and Methodius used slavic language in their liturgy) lost powerful protector. Meanwhile, the Roman rite had behind it power of Holy Roman Empire steadily expanding to east. There are reasons to believe, that Slavic rite survived on Polish lands till Boleslaus the Great or even longer, but it didn't stan a chance against the Roman rite.
But let's assume that after the fall of Great Moravia some energetic Orthodox bishop from Cracow (or even archbishop - there is a theory that a last archbishop of Moravia, Goraz, found refuge in Cracow) started christianisation of Polans. Mieszko would have had the same dilemma he had IOTL (if he wasn't butterflied away). Slavic rite wasn't recognized by the Roman Church, at this time and place led mostly by Germans. Orthodox Christianity wouldn't have helped him against German knights. A heretic was even worse than a pagan.
Perhaps if the Orthodoxy in Czecho-Moravian state survived, Poland also could have went that way. Whole Slavdom being Orthodox could have long-lasting repercusions, bringing these countries closer together.
The Roman Catholic and the Greek Orthodox churches didn't consider eachother heretical until 1054, thought. Even few years before that the Pope and the Emperor were allying themself against Arabs in Southern Italy.
Valdemar II
Banned
The Czechs, Slovaks, Slovens and Croat still end up Catholic. Beside that this is bad news for Poland, in OTL Poland like the Vendish Principalities and Hungary invited Germans into their territorium to develop it, while the Vends was assimilated by the Germans, it only happen for a few border area for Poland and Hungary, this helped centralised the Polish state somewhat. If they're don't invite Germans in, they won't get access to new westen agricultural improvements, and Poland will stay more undevelop, less densely populated and more decentral than in OTL. That will liklely result in the Polish ducal units being slowly brought into the HRE through a continued stream of conflicts, the newly converted rulers will invite German settlers to develop their land, but this will happen in a less rushed manner than in OTL*, there's a good chance that Polish won't survive as a language except in a few isolated enclaves like Vendish.
*One of the thing which saved the Poles from assimilation in OTL, was the sudden demand for westen settlers in several states at the same time.
Baskilisk
Banned
I think a better adjective would be Pole-ify, or Polify. I call this Kovno syndrome. When it's Germans Germanizing Poland, I call it Danzig sydrome.
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To do that I think we would need a surviving Great Moravia. Which is not too hard to achieve - just have Svatopluk use the developing Slavonic-rite church to create a bureaucracy in Great Moravia so the state can survive his death.
Actually, IIRC at the time I am talking about, the two churches did consider the other heretical (look up the Photian Schism for more details). And anyway, even at the best of times there was distrust between the two churches. The alliance you speak of was for more pragmatic reasons and is not indicative of any kind of religious rapport between the Catholic and Orthodox churches.
Originally posted by Baskilisk
I think the word you're looking for is "Polonize".
Originally posted by Prem_Rack.
There were already serious clashes between Roman and Greek Church at that tme. Moreover, German bishops accused Methodius of heresy and even imprisoned him for some time. They were against Slavic rite, probably mostly for political reasons, not theological ones (they supported German expansion to the east). I believe my point still stands.
I think the word you're looking for is "Polonize".
Originally posted by Prem_Rack.
There were already serious clashes between Roman and Greek Church at that tme. Moreover, German bishops accused Methodius of heresy and even imprisoned him for some time. They were against Slavic rite, probably mostly for political reasons, not theological ones (they supported German expansion to the east). I believe my point still stands.
Valdemar II
Banned
They didn't give shit about German expansion to the east, they wanted the Catholic Church to expand to the east.
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I don't think they make such difference. After all even after Poland become Catholic, they fought hard to avoid inclusion in German church organization.
Originally posted by Valdemar II
Originally posted by abas
Exactly. Polish rulers had a lot of problems with attempts to make Polish bishops subordinate to German archbishops.
Originally posted by abas
Exactly. Polish rulers had a lot of problems with attempts to make Polish bishops subordinate to German archbishops.
If you want Orthodox West Slavs, the best way is to keep them contiguous with Orthodox South Slavs. You have to keep Magyars from settling inbetween them (and killing Moravia in the process). In the early 900s, Symeon attacked Byzantium, Byzantium called in the Magyars, Symeon called in the Pechenegs (which ended up hurting the Khazars, too).
So, perhaps better relations between Bulgaria and Byzantium in the 10th century?
So, perhaps better relations between Bulgaria and Byzantium in the 10th century?
Like others here, I see Great Moravia as the best possibility.
If "Hungary" TTL is somewhere in Romania or Crimea or simply not Catholic, and there's a Orthodox power in central Europe, Poland doesn't have to cooperate with the Germans nearly as much.
Finally, West Slavic missionaries to the Polabians could have allowed for a better bulwark against German expansion east, leaving orthodox Poland in a better position vis. the Catholic west.
If "Hungary" TTL is somewhere in Romania or Crimea or simply not Catholic, and there's a Orthodox power in central Europe, Poland doesn't have to cooperate with the Germans nearly as much.
Finally, West Slavic missionaries to the Polabians could have allowed for a better bulwark against German expansion east, leaving orthodox Poland in a better position vis. the Catholic west.