Early Middle Ages: Back when a lot o' sh*t went on

[Moobles]

Hey, before I get to my post I just wanna say I'm real happy to find a whole forum devoted to AH discussion. Obviously, I love AH and that's why I signed up. I've read quite a few posts and excuse me if I noob out here and there.

I've always enjoyed alternate history although it's only been in recent years I've been ballsy enough to put any of it on paper. Life-story aside I've always been interesting in writing my own time-line. I'd much prefer a novel-approach with characters and a story, with the history as a backdrop rather then the focus but alternate history just kicks so much ass I'd love to just write that "backdrop" for myself. I've always been kicking around where I'd want to shove my PoD into though, and I've played around with several.

My first one was one in 1759 regarding the Siege of Quebec. 'Cause I live in Canada I got the history-lesson in class (back in Grade 9) I admit I was pretty intrigued, and did some research and decided to stick a PoD in there. Basically, it's one where New France doesn't get absorbed right away by the British- but the general feeling of the timeline is that there was quite a bit more French in North American then in the original. You know, then I go off and a tangent and yada yada.

My second one was of course the ever-so-cliche "what if the CSA" you know. I never got far with it cause coming on here and looking online- originally just for information on the CSA, I found a bizillion AHs involving total CSA victory or something or other, and it kinda turned me off. I mean, I'd love the idea cause it's such a great backdrop for a novel because it's so relevant- well for Americans and Canadians at least, if the USA was cut right up the middle of the Eastern Seaboard (figuratively speaking). I didn't really wanna pursue it though cause it's been done alot, but maybe everyone just needs their own CSA timeline to appease that side of the mind.

My last one- which is I think the one I'd most like to do but has been thus far very hard to work out, was one starting in the Early Middle Ages (Dark Ages) just prior to the death of the last Latino-Roman Emperor (and I mean Latin-speaking person not Latin-American/Spanish Speaking). I thought it'd be a stretch and I might get pounced for even suggesting it, but thought it out far enough to about 1000ish AD. There's no by-definition PoD but rather I suppose several PoDs which happen over the first few hundred years and change alot, but reading stuff on here I'd thought I'd throw in a few weird situations and just work from there. The two ones that stood out and were most developed (to me) were:

- A Romano-British culture which, unlike the modern-period did not get completely stamped out. I thought it would be somewhat along the same lines as the Vlachs; a strong and very lucky general (perhaps Ambrosius Aurelianus or Vortigern) manages to lead a contingent of Roman forces to some backwater but defendable position. Isle of Wight maybe? Perhaps you guys could shed some light on it. The culture would not be dominant but would instead simply survive for a time at least.

- Reading a topic earlier I pondered what would happen if Justinian I did not conquest as he'd planned; perhaps he dies early or simply abdicates (he thought of fleeing during the Nika Riots I believe) or perhaps he is killed by his plague. Nonetheless, a Byzantine Empire without Justinian- I wonder it, would it survive? Perhaps in the short-run many bad things would happen, but would long-run- specifically the not-stretching-out-the-countries-resources have prevented the disasters in the campaigns against the Sassanids and the Muslims. I dunno, anyway I thought it'd be fun to play around with this one.

I'd obviously play around with it alot more and maps wouldn't look much like our own time (or perhaps they would eerily because I'm biased and would probably want them to look at least vaguely similar.

At any rate, which of the three do you all- veterans in the affairs of alternate history, think I should fiddle with. I mean, not that I'll do whatever anyone says- I don't expect you all to care but, just as an opinion which one do you think would be most fun. I've written parts of all of them and have lots of maps and such, I just can't really pick a one to do (well all except the CSA one, which I only think would be enjoyable to write about and haven't bothered doing anything for).

You're all troopers for reading so much. <3

 

[Ofaloaf]

Welcome to AH.com! I'd say that there's never enough Roman TLs, but that's just my lowly and humble opinion. All three seem viable, although general CSA-victory TLs have, I must say, been done quite a number of times. If you could manage to put a really unique spin on it, sure, but I'd leave that be for the time being.

 

[jmberry]

I'd go with the Medieval period myself. Its a very underrepresented part of Alternate history. That said, an alternate history about Canada would be unique.

 

[Moobles]

Yeah I'd seen one or two Romano-British timelines- even some hypothetical things in books at libraries near my house. My motivation behind one would be making up a Romance-language heavily influenced by a Celtic one (even moreso then Gaulish on Vulgar Latin that evolved into French). But, I suppose when you get down to it just about everything can get cliched if enough people write about stuff- and things that aren't end up being absurd and weird.

That said, a Middle Ages TL is imo the coolest but seems to me to be extremely daunting as there's alot that happened that changed modern-society and it'd be real hard to try and make up for that.

And 'course Canada has a special place in my heart as I live here and- in almost every timeline everything north of the 49th 'cept Quebec occasionally is ignored and is either "conquered" or "still British". Which of course is kinda boring (for a Canadian).

 

[rcduggan]

Roman and Medieval period timelines are my favorite (followed by the Renaissance area).... because you can change so much when parts of the world are still formative. Once you get into the later centuries many things are set in stone, but that is not the case in earlier centuries. I'd be very interested in reading the Romano-British timeline, that would be cool.

 

[Moobles]

Hehe. It's so daunting- it's a whole lot of history to change. I like the Renaissance as well, especially in Europe and India a whole wack of weird stuff went on that's just so fun to play with.

Are there any finished TLs set in the Dark Ages/Reniassance that I should take a look at?

 

[Ofaloaf]

Hehe. It's so daunting- it's a whole lot of history to change. I like the Renaissance as well, especially in Europe and India a whole wack of weird stuff went on that's just so fun to play with.

Are there any finished TLs set in the Dark Ages/Reniassance that I should take a look at?

The Song of Roland is one of the best, I'd say.

edit: not that it's finished, but one could continue a TL indefinitely if one so wished anyways, so no TL is ever truly "finished" unless it includes the end of everything everywhere.

 

[chunkeymonkey13q]

Some Thoughts and Ideas

I think that both of the topics that you mentioned above are interesting, and as I have thought about both of them in depth (I began a timeline for the latter, but stopped due mainly to time related issues), I can offer some advice.

Firstly, to achieve a more lasting Romano-British presence in Britannia, it would be necessary (obviously) to preserve the status quo as of the fourth century on the island. The ‘Roman’ presence was here very superficial, and is threatened by Picts and Scotts (from the north and west respectively) as well as by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians and all manner of other Germanic ‘barbarians’ from the Continent. According to legend (currently there exists much doubt about whether or not the old stories are in fact truthful), the Roman legions were withdrawn circa A.D. 410, and afterwards the society on the island entered a quick decline, which was later exploited by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. New discoveries, however, have disproved some of what was earlier though to have been fact, and it is now known that even after the Romans ‘left,’ the island was still somewhat prosperous (some go as far as to say an economic boom was occurring), and many of the old Roman era forts were still being manned.

As such, to create a more stable Romano-British state, events would need to unfold in a manner which ensures the continuation of the previous status quo. Keeping a Roman force on the island will act to ensure an organized defense against raiders is existent, and logically, these troops will be stationed along defendable points (Hadrian’s Wall for example), but also in major settlements (Londinium, Eburicum etc). While this is the most obvious symbol of continue Roman presence, it is by no means the most important, for the continuation or even growth of the period of economic stability, which dominated the early part of the fifth century plays a far greater role. Keeping the wealthy on top and the natives happy is important, for the richest percentage of the population is also the most Roman, and as time passes and the island remains prosperous, this Roman culture will continue to diffuse downwards (in the form of such benefits as more Baths, Universities, Urban Planning etc). It should be remembered in considering a successful Romano-British culture that the Romanization of Gaul took centuries, and that part of the Empire was incorporated earlier and was located much closer to the Italian Peninsula.

Secondly, with regards to a more stable Eastern Roman Empire, one would need to change more than just the death or abdication of Justinian or the prevention of the Wars of Conquest. The plague, the resulting famine and the long period of draining fighting between the Roman and Sassanid Empires are the three biggest reasons for the weakening of these states and their later fall to the Arabs (though the involved nature of the western conquests certainly did not help). It should be noted that Justinian never committed a serious number of troops or a huge amount of wealth to the Vandal or Gothic Wars, and this is part of the reason that the latter was such a Pyrrhic victory for the Empire. Much more devastating was the plague, which killed off a significant amount of the population (perhaps a third of the total population of the Empire) and resulted in a famine, which further weakened the state. The labor force and the military were both greatly weakened, and the tax base shrunk by a considerable amount. Then too, the wars with King of Kings Khosrau I (of the Sassanid Empire), drained the Empire of much needed wealth, and demonstrated its inability to counter his hit and run tactics.

Regardless, with a focus on the internal situation of its core territories, the Eastern Roman Empire would perhaps fair slightly better in the aftermath of the plague (depending on how much the government’s reaction differed). To ensure continued prosperity, a hard stance will need to be taken against the Sassanid Empire and the military situation will have to be stabilized (troops will need to be present in large numbers and be loyal to the Emperor (no civil wars)). The situation is precarious because all fronts are in jeopardy (North – Slavs, East – Persians, South – Arabs, African tribes), and in creating a good timeline one must not use historical hindsight in affecting the actions and decisions of the leaders of that period.

Hopefully I have been of some help, and the information above will aid you in creating whatever timeline you choose.

 

[rcduggan]

The Song of Roland is one of the best, I'd say.

edit: not that it's finished, but one could continue a TL indefinitely if one so wished anyways, so no TL is ever truly "finished" unless it includes the end of everything everywhere.

By that definition The Song of Roland will never be finished. I think Scarecrow said that he is going o end it at 1200 AD.

 

[Ofaloaf]

By that definition The Song of Roland will never be finished. I think Scarecrow said that he is going o end it at 1200 AD.

I was mainly thinking of why ambitious TLs still end roughly in the present day- that is, it's a rare thing to a an ATL with a PoD in, say, 1812 be written up to 2112 or any year later than 2008.

 

[Scarecrow]

By that definition The Song of Roland will never be finished. I think Scarecrow said that he is going o end it at 1200 AD.

Yeah, pretty much. It takes to much effort to write 1300 years of Alternate History. Four centuries is a good amount.

 

[jmberry]

If your interested in a Celtic-based Romance language, might I suggest googling "Ill Bethisaid" (I think thats how it's spelled). Its a site completely devoted to Alternate Linguistics, inluding a Romance language in Britain. Of course, I can't make heads or tails of the site's layout, but maybe you'll have better luck.