Early Chinese plantation of Coffee (Ming Dynasty)

[cubefreak123]

Speaking of Meiji, the Japanese and Korean may well follow the Chinese fashion and develope a crave for coffee as well, anyone want to elaborate on that?

I doubt it would be much more than just an export between them and China. I'm not sure how much tea was exported from China but neither Korea nor Japan can grow it so supply is bound to be limited.

This has me wondering what adding a stimulant like coffee could do to the country as a whole. There's a bit of a correlation between coffee consumption and industrialization in European history; the leading idea being that introducing a stimulant into a population that had widespread use of a depressant (i.e. alcohol) spurred on new ideas and activity. Correlation doesn't equal causation but then again we don't necessarily know that it didn't help. The Middle East had been drinking coffee for some time and were in multiple aspects more advanced technologically and progressive culturally than Europe for quite some time as well.

 

[Green Painting]

Maybe the problem could be tea? For me at least the two drinks are substitutes.

Maybe... For me, personally, I would prefer tea over coffee as I perceive coffee as overtly stimulant, maybe I'm wrong.

Is there any differnece in terms of cultural stigma attached to tea and coffee in European society?

I'm thinking: is it possible to in China to develope some sort of cultural "rivalry" between coffee and tea: as tea was associated with mandarins, their elaborate costumes, their intricate arts; while coffee could be associated with eunuchs, their martial sub-culture (emperors tends to entrust eunuchs with military power), and then the military (inforced to substitute wine), and finally spread to the people as part of martial-themed opera and storytelling arts..

 

[Green Painting]

Isn't there a significant goat dairying industry in China? I recall reading that goat's milk has significantly less lactose than cow milk. If finding a suitable creamer for your coffee is an obstacle, I think this will work. Additionally, goats tend to be pastured in alpine areas where cows don't get around so well, so if the coffee plantations have to be at high altitude, the goats are likely nearby for somebody to get the idea to mix the two.

Thank you!

I'm not sure whether goat herding is possible for Yunnan. If it could be done, then coffee would effectively elevate the protein intake of the entire nation, causing us to be taller and stronger.

And... Milk doesn't need to be produced in the same place with coffee... You can always ferry the coffee to where the milk is... And I can stimulate milk production in inland provinces as well

I doubt it would be much more than just an export between them and China. I'm not sure how much tea was exported from China but neither Korea nor Japan can grow it so supply is bound to be limited.

This has me wondering what adding a stimulant like coffee could do to the country as a whole. There's a bit of a correlation between coffee consumption and industrialization in European history; the leading idea being that introducing a stimulant into a population that had widespread use of a depressant (i.e. alcohol) spurred on new ideas and activity. Correlation doesn't equal causation but then again we don't necessarily know that it didn't help. The Middle East had been drinking coffee for some time and were in multiple aspects more advanced technologically and progressive culturally than Europe for quite some time as well.

But Japan might later on import more coffee through Nanban trade. And IOTL IIRC the Japanese consumed much more of their Kōhī than we do our Kāfēi.

Emmm, I remember CGP Grey talking about this in one of his videos, but it's the first time I hear people linking Arabic Golden Ages to coffee, and it's plausible.

... And thank you for your input.

 

[ComradeHuxley]

Would coffee replace opium though? The drugs do different things. Opiates generally cause you to calm down and relax while coffee does the opposite...If I'm looking for an escape I'm picking up an opium pipe and not a cup of joe...So I don't think the Opium Wars are going to be averted.

I doubt as well that coffee and caffeine can substitute opium as a luxury good however ....

But you're right I think, in spurring a major boost of coffee production in Vietnam and Indonesia, it also might spread to other locations with similar climates come to think of it...

This could mean that the main supplier for quality opium becomes a Vietnam that tries to diversify its already strong export economy. Once you cut out the English middle man (India-Britain-China) and instead get a straight Vietnam-China trade, you pretty much averted the OTL Opium wars as we know them.

 

[Green Painting]

I doubt as well that coffee and caffeine can substitute opium as a luxury good however ....

This could mean that the main supplier for quality opium becomes a Vietnam that tries to diversify its already strong export economy. Once you cut out the English middle man (India-Britain-China) and instead get a straight Vietnam-China trade, you pretty much averted the OTL Opium wars as we know them.

But if coffee start earlier? Wouldn't it squeeze the amount of land used to grow Opium? So crop substitution... But I'm not sure whether they use the same type of land...

And founder effect. If there is a well established coffee economy in Vietnam, how many Viet farmers would want to substitute the well established coffee for newcomer opium?

And your point about Vietnam reminds me of Myanmar... Could the country be benefitted from Coffee growth, other than opium growth it is known today.

 

[Pio2013]

Another question, given 1 ha of opium, and 1 ha of coffee which will produce more?

I know its not the same the coffeeas as the opium poppies but if given that situation, it wont take too long to figure out which more is more profitable.

 

[Green Painting]

Another question, given 1 ha of opium, and 1 ha of coffee which will produce more?

I know its not the same the coffeeas as the opium poppies but if given that situation, it wont take too long to figure out which more is more profitable.

I don't know enough about region agriculture to comment on that... But maybe coffee...

I've heard that opium is a war crop: it's doesn't take much time to tend, and it's final product is small in size and easier to smuggle (a ball of opium as small as a baseball can feed a Burmese family for half a year, IIRC), so farmers in war ravaged countries like Colombia, Myanmar and Afghanistan had no choice but to grow opium.

The fact that almost all other parts of the world prefers coffee might mean coffee is actually more profitable.

But I may be dead wrong... And all may above posts for coffee may be dead wrong as well, so don't hesitate to refute me...

 

[RousseauX]

It does grow in China today, in Yunnan and Guangxi. But I'm not sure whether it would grow as well if it was planted earlier under a less advance technological condition. As for import to the Europeans, I'm not sure wether it would be as conpetitive as coffee from Arabia which was closer to Europe and had a longer tradition.

Given that it will shift the balance of economic power within China towards the interior, the Chinese imperial government had the habit of transferring wealth from the coast to the interior for public projects (i.e flood control) as a stabilizing mechanism (the poorer interior dwellers don't revolt). This process fell apart during the late Qing when the combination of military pressure and the desire to industrialize the coast meant less money went to those areas.

If another cash crop catches on somewhere away from the Yangtze river delta, it could provide a local source of income that magitates the disasters of the late 19th century.

 

[Richard V]

One thing's for sure, soy latte is going to be invented a lot earlier.

 

[Green Painting]

If another cash crop catches on somewhere away from the Yangtze river delta, it could provide a local source of income that magitates the disasters of the late 19th century.

Would a tropical crop solve the inland provinces' problems?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I'm not a biologist, so I have a question to ask: does a land suitable for Black Tea plantation automatically means it is suitable for Coffee as well? How about tobacco?

Considering that tobacco was grown in Canada

that is a VERY different crop from Tea and Coffee.

Also, why "Black Tea"? Black and green teas are the same crop, just treated differently.

Tea and coffee certainly have some similar needs, but I couldn't say more specifically.

 

[Richard V]

Meanwhile we are now growing coffee in California.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...e-california-makes-a-play-for-coffee-s-future

 

[Richard V]

Looking into this a bit more. It seems there are two main strains of Coffea. The original Ethiopian variety is C. arabica and its derivatives are grown in India, Indonesia, and The Philippines. But the type grown in Vietnam is C. canephora, aka the Robusta strain discovered in Zaire in 1890. The most common type grown in Yunnan China is Catimor coffee, a hybrid strain developed in Portugal in 1959. Perhaps growing Ethiopian coffee in China and Vietnam will not be practical in the 15th century.

On another note, it'll be an interesting POD if west Africans cultivated the Robusta strain earlier, they would have an alternative commodity during the slave trade.

 

[Pere F.]

If china will be addict in coffee they will need to import sugar or grow sugar cane, the impact of millions of chinese consuming sugar will change the commerce with europe, maybe more silk and silver will be exported making countries like netherland and england more rich.

 

[Hobelhouse]

But if coffee start earlier? Wouldn't it squeeze the amount of land used to grow Opium? So crop substitution... But I'm not sure whether they use the same type of land...

And founder effect. If there is a well established coffee economy in Vietnam, how many Viet farmers would want to substitute the well established coffee for newcomer opium?

And your point about Vietnam reminds me of Myanmar... Could the country be benefitted from Coffee growth, other than opium growth it is known today.

If nothing else it will squeeze the capital invested. If it's about as profitable to grow either one, then half the money British investors were pouring in would go into it, all other things being equal.

Opium poppy I think can tolerate drier climates than coffee or tea can, so it could be more profitable in some areas. But investors don't have infinite collective money and attention to put into their endeavors. If the social conditions that led to opiate abuse in that era were avoided or reduced, it might butterfly away anything recognizable as OTL's Opium Wars.

 

[Green Painting]

If nothing else it will squeeze the capital invested. If it's about as profitable to grow either one, then half the money British investors were pouring in would go into it, all other things being equal.

Opium poppy I think can tolerate drier climates than coffee or tea can, so it could be more profitable in some areas. But investors don't have infinite collective money and attention to put into their endeavors. If the social conditions that led to opiate abuse in that era were avoided or reduced, it might butterfly away anything recognizable as OTL's Opium Wars.

It's difficult to change the "social conditions for opium abuse", given human nature, but I think it was indeed possible to change the social system for better opium prohibition.

 

[mosodake]

Also, why "Black Tea"? Black and green teas are the same crop, just treated differently.

Tea and coffee certainly have some similar needs, but I couldn't say more specifically.

Black (and pu-erh) tea from Yunnan comes from a different subspecies than most other Chinese teas.

Tea is much more cold tolerant than coffee. Tea is hardy to around 5 degrees Farenheit, while coffee can tolerate only very light frosts. Coffee is grown commercially on a small scale in the mountains of Taiwan, so there's no reason why it can't be grown in any of the relatively frost-free parts of China. Along the coast, cultivation is theoretically possible as far north as Zhejiang province.

 

[Hobelhouse]

It's difficult to change the "social conditions for opium abuse", given human nature, but I think it was indeed possible to change the social system for better opium prohibition.

Well, there must be a reason opium use became so prolific in China compared to the rest of the world, to the point that Western nations scaremongered about "opium-smoking Orientals". What caused this epidemic to emerge there and not elsewhere?

People usually turn to hard drugs only when they aren't getting something they desperately need out of normal life. What was missing in Qing China?

 

[Yuelang]

I have a wild idea where TTL Today's government get "War on Coffee" and Coffee is treated as highly illegal, addictive substance...

where Opiate are treated as your daily smoke, at least on level of cigarettes

 

[Green Painting]

Well, there must be a reason opium use became so prolific in China compared to the rest of the world, to the point that Western nations scaremongered about "opium-smoking Orientals". What caused this epidemic to emerge there and not elsewhere?

People usually turn to hard drugs only when they aren't getting something they desperately need out of normal life. What was missing in Qing China?

The most obvious answer to late Qing, early Republican drug abuse in China: opium has passed the stage of being a mere escapade or recreation, but has become a necessity.

Because opium intake caused anorexia (loss of appetite), they were ideal for people who couldn't get enough food for themselves. So an overpopulated and undernourished country like China was more prone to opium abuse.

Another reason was that Late-Qing China was a war ravaged country, and opium was an ideal war crop. It was then when the plantation of opium became localized and popularized.

So the reason was food shortage and war.