Earliest the Qing can succesfully reform to be strong enough the face the west?

People often talk about how the Qing could reform on here but it seems to be focused on how they could have reformed in the later periods, like the Guanxu restoration. But it seems like they could have modernised earlier than this to avoid the disasters of the century of humiliation.
They could have reformed after their defeat in the first opium war but it seems they didn't do enough. There was also some attempts after Taiping but Cixi limited them.
So when was the earliest they could have reformed and what would have the effects been of lets say a succesful reform just after the first opium war?

EDIT: I know they reformed OTL I'm asking about how early they could succesfully reform to catch up to the Europeans like what the Japanese did
 
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People often talk about how the Qing could reform on here but it seems to be focused on how they could have reformed in the later periods, like the Guanxu restoration. But it seems like they could have modernised earlier than this to avoid the disasters of the century of humiliation.
They could have reformed after their defeat in the first opium war but it seems they didn't do enough. There was also some attempts after Taiping but Cixi limited them.
So when was the earliest they could have reformed and what would have the effects been of let’s he say a succesful reform just after the first opium war?

The Qing did continued reform, the main problem was an inability to keep up with Europeans. Qing reforms was attempt at running up to the point European were at, but the Europeans kept running and even began running faster.
 

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People often talk about how the Qing could reform on here but it seems to be focused on how they could have reformed in the later periods, like the Guanxu restoration. But it seems like they could have modernised earlier than this to avoid the disasters of the century of humiliation.
They could have reformed after their defeat in the first opium war but it seems they didn't do enough. There was also some attempts after Taiping but Cixi limited them.
So when was the earliest they could have reformed and what would have the effects been of lets say a succesful reform just after the first opium war?
The Qing Dynasty actually reformed China from the 1860s to near the end of the Chinese monarchy. The Beiyang Fleet was literally considered the strongest in East Asia before the First Sino-Japanese War.
 
the Qing's issue was not an inherent inability to technologically develop, but a culture of corruption in the ruling elites dating back to the qianlong emperor that made their modernized state ineffectual. famously, for example, the beiyang fleet ran out of ammunition while fighting the ijn. the Qing addressing this culture of corruption would have been possible but it would have required far more dynamic leadership than what it had. alternatively, if you can avoid the later reign of qianlong the corruption issue might have been less severe; in his senility he effectively refused to crack down on corruption in his court favorites and by the time he passed it was normalized
 
the Qing's issue was not an inherent inability to technologically develop, but a culture of corruption in the ruling elites dating back to the qianlong emperor that made their modernized state ineffectual. famously, for example, the beiyang fleet ran out of ammunition while fighting the ijn. the Qing addressing this culture of corruption would have been possible but it would have required far more dynamic leadership than what it had. alternatively, if you can avoid the later reign of qianlong the corruption issue might have been less severe; in his senility he effectively refused to crack down on corruption in his court favorites and by the time he passed it was normalized
Could it have been resolved by later emperors?
 
Could it have been resolved by later emperors?
Yeah, I think it could have, but at this point you're going beyond a single specific POD and into the Qing trying to do a different thing than what they were doing OTL. I'm not educated enough in late Qing history to know the specifics of how such a program could have panned out, but it certainly would have been possible for an Emperor prepared to make a lot of enemies.
 
The Great Qing had a corruption issue but that was not what stopped the success of the Self-Strengthening Movement. An often not discussed matter is that the Great Qing for all intents and purposes died in the zenith of the Taiiping Rebellion and other disturbances. The Self-Strengthening Movement represented a revived and phantom version of what the Great Qing once was and thus it could not have been truly expected to have become as grand as it had hoped.
 
a culture of corruption in the ruling elites dating back to the qianlong emperor that made their modernized state ineffectual.
The corruption of Qianlong's reign was so infamous that the next two emperors would make it their top priority. Unfortunately, starting in the 1820s, China would go into an economic crisis due to loss of reliable silver imports from Mexico. The treasury started bleeding money, and the imperial court mistook this for a resurgence of corruption. Then the opium crisis appeared in the 1830s and compounded the issue. To make it even worse, Daoguang decided to remedy the problem with austerity measures, which just made the actual government corruption worse by slashing budgets, which were already hopelessly behind the population they were meant to service.

Really, there were problems much worse than corruption plaguing the pre-Cixi Qing government: The government was dreadfully understaffed compared to its European contemporaries. Provincial officials were underpaid and made up a large part of their budgets by graft and corruption, and they had to outsource most of the stuff we think of as government responsibilities onto local wealthy families. Provincial budgets had also been deliberately frozen since the 17th century, which left them servicing a population x3 what they had originally been meant for. The result was increasingly weak and overstretched government as time wore on. These problems hadn't yet been addressed before Cixi, but Cixi's rule and her commitment to kleptocracy meant that they would never be comprehensively fixed.
 
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EDIT: I know they reformed OTL I'm asking about how early they could succesfully reform to catch up to the Europeans like what the Japanese did
1. The BEIC's monopoly on British trade with China is revoked along with its Indian monopoly, 20 years earlier than IOTL. This causes the opium crisis to start in the early 1820s instead of the mid-1830s.
2. The Mexican War of Independence either doesn't happen or is delayed by a decade. This causes the silver crisis to either not happen or start in the 1830s-40s.
3. Due to earlier escalation of the opium crisis, the Opium War happens somewhere around 10 years earlier than IOTL, around 1825-30.

IOTL, the silver crisis and opium crisis were unpleasant problems on their own, but their close timing made them much worse when put together. The silver crisis was caused by the import of Mexican silver ceasing even as exports via normal trade with Europe continued, and the opium crisis made it much worse because it turbocharged the export of silver. This meant that when the Qing stumbled into the Opium War, their attention was entirely consumed by their internal problems. Modernization would have to wait until after the internal problems were resolved, and that remained the government's line, even as more and more officials came to believe otherwise, until 1861. And then Cixi happened, and the rest was history.

If the opium crisis starts before the Mexican War of Independence, and the MWoI is delayed, then the increased exports of silver caused by the influx of opium can be matched by increased silver imports from Mexico. This leaves us a good window of time (1820s-30s) in which the Qing government can enter into an Opium War without an ongoing economic headache to preoccupy them, and the Qing government is much more likely to seriously tackle the issue of modernization than IOTL.
Qing imperial policy tended to become set in stone around single issues in an emperor's reign, and all subsequent problems had a good chance of getting ignored or misinterpreted as part of that first problem. In Daoguang's case, he took the opium crisis and conflated it with an ongoing silver crisis caused by the Mexican War of Independence (but which he actually believed was caused by rampant corruption in the Qing government and not by the turmoil in Mexico). If the opium crisis and the resulting war comes before the silver crisis instead of after, he will become focused on catching up to Britain technologically instead of balancing the budget and rooting out corruption that wasn't there. He even acknowledged that the British were indeed superior technologically IOTL, but he explicitly put modernization on the back burner until China's internal problems could be resolved.

The Qing government has the stereotype of being inherently backward and reactionary, when it really wasn't. However, it was very monomaniacal because the emperor appointed all high officials, so his views and concerns tended to get reflected throughout all of government. So even as officials and members of the literati class became increasingly convinced that modernization was necessary, emperors Daoguang and Xianfeng instead focused on financial problems and corruption. In fact, a group of reformist officials led by Prince Gong conspired with one of Xianfeng's concubines to enact a coup after Xianfeng's death against the new emperor's regents. Cixi then began consolidating power around herself, using the emperor as her puppet and rubber stamp, and locked the reformists out of power for the next 40 years. And because Cixi placed no interest in modernization and more on appointing corrupt toadies who'd keep her in power, any hope for successful Qing reform vanished during her reign.

Under an emperor interested in modernization and not under the shadow of his corrupt and out-of-touch mom, the Qing government would be capable of great things. The only question is how to get the emperor interested in modernization.
IOTL, there was a 20 year delay between the Opium War and the first reforms. ITTL, the Opium War is a decade early and the government gets on the issue almost immediately, meaning China has a 30 year headstart and much more competent and effective leadership, and the result is a modernization that looks a lot more like Meiji Japan.

For example, IOTL there were four separate fleets built for the new Chinese navy. In practice, only one had imperial government funding and control, and the rest were built by provincial governors out of their own budgets, with zero help from the government and with no coordination with the other fleets. In fact, the Beiyang Fleet poached the best ships from the other fleets several times. The four fleets had different rank systems, different technical bases, did not help each other in wartime, and their officers frequently participated in their patrons' political squabbles. When they lost ships, they also had to rebuild them on their own money, putting the three non-Beiyang fleets in a difficult situation and causing them to slide more into irrelevance with every big naval battle.

Why did only one fleet get imperial funding, and why was the navy so disjointed? Because only one fleet got to be based near Beijing and staffed by officers guaranteed to be part of Cixi's clique, making it the only one that she could rely on to be loyal in the event of a coup or rebellion. And she had good reason to be afraid since, by the rules of the Qing political system, Cixi's regime was fundamentally illegal and everyone was aware of that: dead emperors' concubines just do not get to decide government policy and ignore or subvert all the institutions of the imperial household and the bureaucracy, and they certainly don't participate in politics at all after their children reach majority.

ITTL, none of this is the case. There is one navy, with one command structure and one shipbuilding program, and strong interest in keeping up with and eventually eclipsing its rivals (those being foreign navies, of course).
 
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The corruption of Qianlong's reign was so infamous that the next two emperors would make it their top priority. Unfortunately, starting in the 1820s, China would go into an economic crisis due to loss of reliable silver imports from Mexico. The treasury started bleeding money, and the imperial court mistook this for a resurgence of corruption. Then the opium crisis appeared in the 1830s and compounded the issue. To make it even worse, Daoguang decided to remedy the problem with austerity measures, which just made the actual government corruption worse by slashing budgets, which were already hopelessly behind the population they were meant to service.

Really, there were problems much worse than corruption plaguing the pre-Cixi Qing government: The government was dreadfully understaffed compared to its European contemporaries. Provincial officials were underpaid and made up a large part of their budgets by graft and corruption, and they had to outsource most of the stuff we think of as government responsibilities onto local wealthy families. Provincial budgets had also been deliberately frozen since the 17th century, which left them servicing a population x3 what they had originally been meant for. The result was increasingly weak and overstretched government as time wore on. These problems hadn't yet been addressed before Cixi, but Cixi's rule and her commitment to kleptocracy meant that they would never be comprehensively fixed.
That's really interesting, thanks for the info! Did the New Mexican government change export policy at all from the Viceroyalty or was it just a result of the general issues caused by war?
 
That's really interesting, thanks for the info! Did the New Mexican government change export policy at all from the Viceroyalty or was it just a result of the general issues caused by war?
Mainly the problem was decline in quality caused by prolonged government instability.
Only in the 1850s did the Mexican dollar return to its previous quality and start being imported in bulk again.
afaik, until the crisis ended, the Qing government never actually figured out the connection between this and their silver problems.

Before the opium crisis started, the bleeding of the treasury caused by the silver crisis was assumed to be an uptick in corruption, to which the natural response was redoubling previous anti-corruption efforts. When the opium crisis got going in the 30s, the increased severity of the bleeding treasury was blamed on opium imports, and the natural response was to enforce the ban on opium. The Liangguang viceroy wasn't doing that, so Daoguang sent an envoy to take control of the situation and fix it. After the Opium War, though, the laws simply couldn't be enforced. They remained on the books, but officials went light on smugglers for fear of another war. And as far as the government was concerned, they couldn't do anything about the problem just yet, so they would have to leave it alone.


At this point, I'm sure people are wondering why Mexican coins were so special to China.
Why didn't they accept other coins of high consistency, like US dollars?

Because Spanish dollars had been very prestigious in China since the 17th century due to being the only consistent coinage in all of East Asia.
Now, the Chinese did have their own mints producing coins... about 60 different ones in different localities, each with different values to each other, and with poor consistency on top of that. By contrast, Spanish dollars were very consistent and stable, and they were being imported in gigantic quantities because Spain was China's biggest trading partner for centuries. And the silver for that came from mega-mines in Zacatecas, Mexico, which even today produce 15% of the world's total silver.

Crucially, merchants wanted them because they could be used as a yardstick to measure other coins against, and were ideal for accounting. When they lost their consistency, they lost their value as the accounting North Star for merchants, so imports of new ones crashed. For the Qing government, fixing the shambolic state of local mints and raising the quality of local cash simply hadn't been necessary as long as the Spanish dollar was around.
 
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Could it have been resolved by later emperors?
You are assuming the emperor powers are absolute.

They aren’t.

Cixi and her posse of conservatives managed to sideline the reformist faction and allow corruption to fester is the main reason why Qing lag behind japan modernisation (alongside many reasons such as the lack of control over the provinces, inability to raise tax, foreign control over key industries such as railroads, also British control over tariff etc)
 
You are assuming the emperor powers are absolute.

They aren’t.
I'm not, almost no one's is but that doesn't mean they couldn't resolve something like that, since they'd have their allies and they could scheme in the way Cixi did while also having more legitimacy than her.
 
You are assuming the emperor powers are absolute.

They aren’t.
Actually, they pretty much are. And if the emperor is a little boy rubber stamp controlled by his mom, that is very bad.
That was why Cixi was able to sideline the reformers: she was Tongzhi's mother, and her participation was vital to the reformists' coup succeeding in the beginning, so they had to split power with her in the new government. They would fill some positions with their supporters, she would fill some with hers. And with those supporters + her personal control over the emperor, she was able to slowly purge the reformists, because the emperor's decree was law, and she was making the decrees for him.

She was also careful to install her buddies in positions to augment her control over him.

For example, she appointed Weng Tonghe to tutor the boy-emperor, and his performance was disastrous; under his tutelage, Tongzhi became completely disinterested in learning and hard work, and instead preferred a life of drugs, sex and alcohol. Basically, Weng Tonghe did everything he could to ensure that Tongzhi would remain a rubber stamp in adulthood for his mother and have no interest in ruling the country. But while Tongzhi was a dissolute brat, he also hated his mother and eventually took power from the regency council in 1873. Cixi would stay around in the palace, but she would only advise and influence the emperor now instead of making decrees for him. Two years later, he was dead of smallpox. Or syphilis; accounts differ. Personally, given that Tongzhi was increasingly indicating that he wanted to kick Cixi to the curb and rule without her buzzing in his ear, I'm inclined to believe she had him assassinated.

After Tongzhi's death, Weng Tonghe was brought up on charges of gross negligence and incompetence in his education of the emperor, but was exonerated by Cixi, who then immediately made him the young Guangxu's tutor. He tried a different tack with him: instead of trying to instill in him a disinterest in state affairs, he instilled in him a deep reverence for Cixi. This too would fail with time, but it took a lot longer for Guangxu to go against Cixi, by which time Cixi had thoroughly infested the capital and the army with her henchmen. So when he finally went against her in 1898, Cixi just called on her servants in the army to put a stop to it, and put the emperor under house arrest.
 
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The Great Qing had a corruption issue but that was not what stopped the success of the Self-Strengthening Movement. An often not discussed matter is that the Great Qing for all intents and purposes died in the zenith of the Taiiping Rebellion and other disturbances. The Self-Strengthening Movement represented a revived and phantom version of what the Great Qing once was and thus it could not have been truly expected to have become as grand as it had hoped.

If the Taiping Rebellion did not occur would the Qing be strong enough to sort of start its own "Meiji Restoration" and be vis-a-vis Japan? I had the idea for a TL where Meiji Japan took King Kalākaua's offer of marrying his daughter to one of the princes of the Japanese royal family, turning Hawaii into a semi-autonomous protectorate/personal union. This changes Meiji Japan's approach to foreign influence from one of outright conquest to one of exerting more "peaceful" integration in the form of marrying into various Asian kingdoms and royal families through economic or political pressures as well as a means of helping those kingdoms avoid Western imposition. A stronger Qing might see a more equitable, symbiotic benefit to a personal union with Japan in such a case. Do you think such a TL is plausible?
 
People often talk about how the Qing could reform on here but it seems to be focused on how they could have reformed in the later periods, like the Guanxu restoration. But it seems like they could have modernised earlier than this to avoid the disasters of the century of humiliation.
They could have reformed after their defeat in the first opium war but it seems they didn't do enough. There was also some attempts after Taiping but Cixi limited them.
So when was the earliest they could have reformed and what would have the effects been of lets say a succesful reform just after the first opium war?

EDIT: I know they reformed OTL I'm asking about how early they could succesfully reform to catch up to the Europeans like what the Japanese did
The Qing Dynasty's earliest opportunity to enact significant reforms and modernize could have been immediately after their defeat in the First Opium War, which concluded in 1842. The humiliating treaty that followed, the Treaty of Nanking, not only ceded territory to foreign powers but also opened up ports for foreign trade and extraterritoriality, severely undermining Qing sovereignty. This defeat should have served as a wake-up call for the Qing court to recognize the urgent need for reforms to strengthen their military, economy, and governance.

Had the Qing Dynasty successfully initiated reforms at this critical juncture, several potential effects could have been seen. First and foremost, a reformed military could have provided better defense against further foreign aggression and diminished the influence of European powers within China. By modernizing their military forces, they could have been better equipped to resist and negotiate on more favorable terms with foreign powers.
Economic reforms would have been vital to bolster China's financial standing and stimulate industrialization. Investment in infrastructure, such as railways and telegraphs, could have improved internal connectivity and facilitated economic growth. Encouraging modern industry and trade would have lessened China's reliance on traditional agriculture and reduced vulnerability to fluctuations in food production.

In terms of governance, administrative reforms could have curbed corruption and enhanced the efficiency and effectiveness of the government. The implementation of a merit-based civil service examination system and greater transparency could have restored public confidence in the ruling regime.
A successful reform after the First Opium War could have ultimately preserved China's sovereignty and mitigated the subsequent disasters of the "Century of Humiliation." By becoming a more powerful and modern state, the Qing Dynasty might have been better positioned to resist further Western and Japanese encroachments, thus averting events like the Second Opium War, the Taiping Rebellion, and the Boxer Rebellion.

However, it is important to note that any historical "what-if" scenario is complex, and success would have depended on various factors, including the willingness of the ruling elites to embrace change, the ability to effectively implement reforms and the response of various factions and societal groups within China. Nonetheless, seizing the opportunity to reform after the First Opium War could have potentially altered the course of Chinese history and alleviated some of the devastating consequences of the subsequent decades.
 
If the Taiping Rebellion did not occur would the Qing be strong enough to sort of start its own "Meiji Restoration" and be vis-a-vis Japan?
Assuming a POD of 1850, then the silver crisis would end pretty soon as IOTL.

Without the Taiping taking their attention and devastating half the country, they can defeat the other rebellions(*) much quicker; and with the Mexican silver flowing into China again, the pro-modernization voices in government get more credence with time. Daoguang and Xianfeng were not opposed to the idea of importing Western technology to improve the army and navy; they just considered it too expensive to do while the treasury was bleeding money to (apparent) corruption, and then the rebellions started popping off and delayed it even further. One problem at a time, so to speak.

(*): which were all much smaller, but were kept alive longer than they should've been because the Taiping took so many troops to deal with.
 
Since OP is asking for earliest possible date, here are some dates, going backward in time.

1861: the Tongzhi Restoration happens, but Prince Gong and the reformists manage to purge Cixi afterward instead of the other way around, leading to Tongzhi being competently raised by pro-reformists instead of being deliberately spoiled by Cixi to be her pawn, and China goes forward with an emperor intent on modernization.

1850: Prince Gong becomes the next emperor instead of his half-brother. Prince Gong leaned pro-modernization (that is, he placed it as a bigger priority than the fiscal issues), while Xianfeng was more like his father. So if Taiping still happens, he'd be more favorable to going forward with modernization as quickly as possible. Also, Prince Gong lived much longer IOTL than Xianfeng, and Cixi was not his concubine, so even if he died earlier than IOTL, she would not have control over his succession.
1850: the Taiping Rebellion doesn't happen, the silver crisis passes naturally in the mid-50s, and Xianfeng can now consider modernization.

1813: the BEIC's monopoly on British trade with China is revoked, allowing British merchants to flood opium into China, which causes the Opium War to come early.

1810s: the Mexican revolutionaries are suppressed, and the silver crisis is prevented, for reasons outlined in a previous post.

1805: the British capture the Philippines off of Spain in the War of the 3rd Coalition. This gives them a foothold in the South China Sea and increases the possibility of an early war between China and Britain, regardless of opium. The British wanted free trade since the failed Macartney Embassy, and they might be more interested in being assertive about this if they have a fleet base next to China.

1790s: Napoleon doesn't come to power, France doesn't (successfully) invade Spain, Spanish authority in Mexico doesn't break down, the Mexican War of Independence is prevented or delayed, and the silver crisis is prevented.

1793: the political fallout of the Hastings trial is worse, which causes Parliament to revoke the BEIC's monopoly on trade with China in the 1793 charter.

1770s: the British avoid or suppress the American Revolution. IOTL, American merchants supplied about 10% of Chinese opium imports by the 1820s. ITTL, they'll add to the number of British merchants clamoring for the BEIC's monopolies to be revoked, which would lead to the China monopoly being revoked in 1813, or possibly even in 1793 if they use the Hastings trial to attack the BEIC. Also, if France doesn't support the Americans and focuses on their own fiscal problems, they could avoid the French Revolution. This prevents the rise of Napoleon, the invasion of Spain, and the collapse of the Spanish Empire in the 1820s, which prevents the silver crisis.

1763: the British forces which captured the Philippines in the Seven Years' War manage to get news of their victory to London before the Treaty of Paris is signed, and Britain annexes the Philippines. This gives Britain a foothold in the South China Sea, etc, etc, except 40 years earlier. 40 years is a lot of time in which they can instigate a war which shakes the Qing government into a modernization mindset, especially after Heshen is purged. Then again, Heshen only began to work in the imperial palace in 1772, so this could easily avoid Heshen's era entirely.

Also, there's a major what-if that would strongly influence the situation, but would probably have to be paired with other events to significantly change the situation.​

1824: the Burmese press onward to the undefended Chittagong after the Battle of Ramu instead of retreating, ravage Bengal, and ultimately defeat the BEIC. The BEIC, having incurred massive debts in the war and lost its prestige, defaults on its debts and is disbanded by the British government. With its monopoly on opium trade gone, independent British merchants flood into China with opium, causing the opium crisis to happen slightly early. From there, who knows what happens?
 
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If the Ming-Qing transition can get bogged down and become one of China's periods of prolonged division, then they might not fall behind in the first place. On land, China's military only fell behind Europe in the 1700s. And a Ming remnant/successor in southern China may be able to replicate Southern Song's dynamic economy, which could then spur copying by the competing Chinese states.
 
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