Earliest possible heavier than air powered flight

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Now I am slightly nervous of checking whether Hartford PD actually tried a Congreve rocket powered glider :hushedface:

BTW actual historical context is a picture that was used as the original for an engraving in an 1892 issue of Scientific American. I really don't think anyone thought of Congreve rockets as a sustained flight power source mind.
I'm now far less confident the writers of "The Young Riders" got it wrong.:eek: (That said, we don't actually see them using it from the wagon...;))

As for Congreve rockets, I continue to be dubious. AFAIK, they tended to be unstable in flight in the extreme...:eek: I can only imagine the effect of enough of them to power a manned glider.:eek:
 

marathag

Banned
As for Congreve rockets, I continue to be dubious. AFAIK, they tended to be unstable in flight in the extreme...:eek: I can only imagine the effect of enough of them to power a manned glider.
A few may not be too bad
But
SS2317259.jpg

whatever could go wrong?
 
WI Francis Rogallo had been born a century earlier?
He got his start designing kites and kite-balloons, then internal ribs for barrage balloons. By 1960, Francis and Mrs. Rogall were test-flying Rogallo kite prototypes, which evolved into modern hang-gliders. Rogallo's chief advantage was light structural weight.
Soon afterwards, skydivers proved that you don't even need rigid keels to fly Rogallo wings. I have jumped Delta II and Paradactyl Rogallo parachutes. A PZ81 and a Tekla are waiting in my closet.
 
Remember in 2003 when they tried to fly a replica of the Flyer and couldn't get it off of the ground. IIRC no one is sure just how accurate the machine in the Smithsonian is compared tto its state on December 17, 1903 due to having been crashed, rebuilt and modified by the Wrights. The biggest single thing the Wrights did to advance flight IMO is their work on propellers.
 
The biggest single thing the Wrights did to advance flight IMO is their work on propellers.
That was big. There's two other things they deserve a lot of credit for: developing the wind tunnel, & being systematic in data collection. Being systematic wasn't something most experimenters were.
 

Aphrodite

Banned
Truth is stranger than fiction:

If you were to go to the Imperial Russian Justice department and look into the files about the Assasination of Alexander II you would find a drawing of a completely workable jet engine designed by one of the assassins
 
Truth is stranger than fiction:

If you were to go to the Imperial Russian Justice department and look into the files about the Assasination of Alexander II you would find a drawing of a completely workable jet engine designed by one of the assassins

Truth is strange.

The Soviets bought British, rather than build based on the drawings of an assassin.
 
phx,

As i've said before, the information developed by the Wrights, from their wind tunnel, was inappropriate for full scale aircraft, even those flying as slowly as theirs. The airfoils they painstakingly tested and developed were ideal for medium size birds and small model airplanes. Full scale man-carrying devices had wings operating in a more than order of magnitude higher Reynolds Number domain, where a much different wing airfoil would produce a considerably higher Lift/Drag ratio. This was finally recognized in Germany during WW 1.

That was big. There's two other things they deserve a lot of credit for: developing the wind tunnel, & being systematic in data collection. Being systematic wasn't something most experimenters were.

As for propellers, I really can't comment, however the absence of some means of preventing reverse flow at the hub throws away several points of efficiency.

Not a fan of the Wright Bros.

Dynasoar
 
the information developed by the Wrights, from their wind tunnel, was inappropriate for full scale aircraft, even those flying as slowly as theirs. The airfoils they painstakingly tested and developed were ideal for medium size birds and small model airplanes.
I did not know that. Thx.

That said, I'll bet nobody did in 1902-3...& a full-scale tunnel, even for comparatively low-speed trials, was a pricey item.
As for propellers, I really can't comment, however the absence of some means of preventing reverse flow at the hub throws away several points of efficiency.
I won't argue the loss issue. AIUI, they made a real breakthrough in realizing props were effectively rotating wings, & their designs were (just about) as efficient as could (would) ever be made.
Not a fan of the Wright Bros.
I'm getting that.:) I may be a bit fanboyish, myself (once my bias & ignorance is allowed for), but IMO you're harder on them than they deserve. (Maybe not enormously harder, but...;))
 

longsword14

Banned
Full scale man-carrying devices had wings operating in a more than order of magnitude higher Reynolds Number domain, where a much different wing airfoil would produce a considerably higher Lift/Drag ratio. This was finally recognized in Germany during WW 1.
Which is quite odd when one considers that basic dimensional analysis should have been known to high school students. Buckingham formally wrote it as the π theorem around 1917.
 
I guess you can call me a fanboy of the Wright's, and of Charlie Taylor, because they were bicycle mechanics at a time when aerodynamics wasn't much of an applied science with regards to airplanes.
 

marathag

Banned
I guess you can call me a fanboy of the Wright's, and of Charlie Taylor, because they were bicycle mechanics at a time when aerodynamics wasn't much of an applied science with regards to airplanes.

"I admire the Wrights. I feel friendly toward them for the marvels they have achieved; but you can easily gauge how I feel concerning their attitude at present by the remark I made to Wilbur Wright recently. I told him I was sorry to see they were suing other experimenters and abstaining from entering the contests and competitions in which other men are brilliantly winning laurels. I told him that in my opinion they are wasting valuable time over lawsuits which they ought to concentrate in their work. Personally, I do not think that the courts will hold that the principle underlying the warping tips can be patented."

--Octave Chanute, the guy who helped everyone who asked

Glenn Curtiss offered to sell the Wrights his V-twin Motorcycle engine, but turned him down He sold them to others to power early dirigibles, and he later made engines derived from this with more cylinders for the AEA aircraft
  • Cylinders: 2
  • Displacement: 60 cu in
  • Bore and Stroke:3.25 in. x 3.625 in.
  • Horsepower: 7 hp at 1,500 rpm
  • Weight: 50 lb
Taylor made this
  • Cylinders: 4
  • Bore and Stroke: 4 in. x 4in.
  • Displacement: 201 cu.in
  • Horsepower:12 hp at 1,025 rpm
  • Weight: 180 lbs
 
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Gentlemen,

You are correct in detecting that I'm not wholeheartedly a fan of Orville and Wilbur. I admire their achievement , but Chanute's comments express my views as well. While the distinction between laminar and turbulent flow was quantified as far back as about 1830 by Belanger (then called "fluvial" and "torrential"), it was largely an area of interest of civil engineers (flow thru pipes and weirs). I don't fault the Wrights for not being aware of scale effects, but the negative consequences of their work should also be mentioned.

That being said, its only fair to mention that literally everybody after Stringfellow/Henson who tried to build a flying or gliding device used thin cambered wing sections (except Maxim who employed a thin flat wing section). As someone observed earlier, there was a lot of copying going on.

As for wind tunnels. an alternative approach would have been to test a full scale wing, or even flying machine, on a parallel arm balance, mounted on, but ahead of a railroad flatcar pushed by a locomotive. A relatively cheap rental in those days, and potentially lots of fun.

In my alternate world, Sam Langley and Charles Manley would have built a better stress analysed and braced "Airodrome" with skids and a takeoff dolly or weak catapult like the Wrights. Fly this inherently stable and more than adequately powered ship from a large open field and into the history books.

Dynasoar
 
Gentlemen,

You are correct in detecting that I'm not wholeheartedly a fan of Orville and Wilbur. I admire their achievement , but Chanute's comments express my views as well. While the distinction between laminar and turbulent flow was quantified as far back as about 1830 by Belanger (then called "fluvial" and "torrential"), it was largely an area of interest of civil engineers (flow thru pipes and weirs). I don't fault the Wrights for not being aware of scale effects, but the negative consequences of their work should also be mentioned.

That being said, its only fair to mention that literally everybody after Stringfellow/Henson who tried to build a flying or gliding device used thin cambered wing sections (except Maxim who employed a thin flat wing section). As someone observed earlier, there was a lot of copying going on.

As for wind tunnels. an alternative approach would have been to test a full scale wing, or even flying machine, on a parallel arm balance, mounted on, but ahead of a railroad flatcar pushed by a locomotive. A relatively cheap rental in those days, and potentially lots of fun.

In my alternate world, Sam Langley and Charles Manley would have built a better stress analysed and braced "Airodrome" with skids and a takeoff dolly or weak catapult like the Wrights. Fly this inherently stable and more than adequately powered ship from a large open field and into the history books.

Dynasoar
I'll give you their negative effect; the dominance of bipes alone, resulting from Flyer I, deserves some scalding.

I'll also give you the flatcar idea, which I also like.:) I'm less sure it was easy to gain access; the cars would have to be rented from somebody, & there would (inevitably) be somebody else who needed the car more, & would be willing to pay more--wouldn't there? (Absent "piggybacking", which requires, perhaps, more creative thinking than was in play at the time.) Nor would the loco rental exactly be cheap, & those are going to be in pretty well continuous operation.

And Manley, IMO, deserves a medal. He did a better job than Taylor by far; I can't help wonder how Flyer I would have looked, & performed, with 150hp or so, instead of 12.:eek:

Langley, OTOH, deserves a roasting IMO. He was a blowhard (I hesitate to say charlatan, but...). He doesn't deserve mention in the same breath with the Wrights IMO. Whatever the Wrights got wrong, I still say, their systematic approach, the careful experimentation, rather than the "slap it together & jump off a roof" that was usual at the time, earns them pride of place.
 

Driftless

Donor
The Flatcar idea is interesting and there was a kind of historic analog: Mile-a-minute-Murphy. (Charles Murphy using a specially decked out stretch of the Long Island Railroad and a train to achieve a human powered bicycle speed record).
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Frost

Sometime in the 1890s he was taken with the idea of building a flying machine. Despite his poverty he managed to construct the "Frost Airship Glider", which seems, in principle, to have resembled a vertical takeoff airplane, with gas-filled tanks.[1]From the Patent description:

"The flying machine is propelled into the air by two reversible fans revolving horizontally. When sufficient height is gained, wings are spread and tilted by means of a lever, causing the machine to float onward and downward. When low enough the lever is reversed causing it to rise upward & onward. When required to stop it the wings are tilted so as to hold against the wind or air and lowered by the reversible fans. The steering is done by a helm fitted to front of machine."
 
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