Earlier Zepplins and Machine guns .

mad orc

Banned
This thread is based on a similar thread which i read a few months back on this site .

In it ,the author hypothised that Germany reformed earlier in 1850 during the Luxembourg crisis and as a result ,
Zepplins ,steam cars and rifle technology came quicker than OTL .

Now the thread seems to have disappeared .

ANYWAY .

Now we have this thread!!!!!!!!!

How early could a zepplin be developed and started to be used .
 
Zepplins need two things - aluminum and internal combustion engines. Aluminum was not available in quantity until 1889/1890, and that is a timeframe for the first reliable gasoline and diesel engines. Of course you'll want to go from basic engines to ones with decent power/weight numbers. Given all that, really 1895-1900 is the earliest for practical rigid airships. Not a lot earlier than OTL. To get Zeps substantially earlier you need to move up those two bits of technology, and remember aluminum smelting needs lots of electric power so throw that in too.

For machine guns, as opposed to Gatlings, you really need reliable smokeless powder as black powder will gum up the works pretty quickly. With smokeless powder, brass cartridges with reliable primers, a Mxim gun is not a big leap.
 
Zepplins need two things - aluminum and internal combustion engines. Aluminum was not available in quantity until 1889/1890, and that is a timeframe for the first reliable gasoline and diesel engines. Of course you'll want to go from basic engines to ones with decent power/weight numbers. Given all that, really 1895-1900 is the earliest for practical rigid airships. Not a lot earlier than OTL. To get Zeps substantially earlier you need to move up those two bits of technology, and remember aluminum smelting needs lots of electric power so throw that in too.

For machine guns, as opposed to Gatlings, you really need reliable smokeless powder as black powder will gum up the works pretty quickly. With smokeless powder, brass cartridges with reliable primers, a Mxim gun is not a big leap.
That's the strict definition of zeppelin though. If we go to a more general airship definition, it is possible much earlier.
For combat, I'd say as early as 1880 would not be crazy.
I created a couple threads on the subject, it'd be very useful in colonial wars
 

mad orc

Banned
where are those threads?
That's the strict definition of zeppelin though. If we go to a more general airship definition, it is possible much earlier.
For combat, I'd say as early as 1880 would not be crazy.
I created a couple threads on the subject, it'd be very useful in colonial wars
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
You could certainly have armed dirigibles in the 1880s, a war would produce the spur needed to weaponise them

Steam tractors were used in the Boer war to pull loads. Russian submarines in 1904 made a combat attack run against Japanese destroyers. French submarines had been doing successful training runs in the 1890s. War brings things forward.
 
With the earlier Zeppelin dates, really armed dirigibles at that stage as I'm not sure you could build a rigid airship that early, you could put some of the contemporary manual machine guns on them. The Gatling and Nordenfelt guns and the Hotchkiss rotary canons are quasi-machine guns and they were used on naval vessels of the period. So it seems like a pretty simple leap to put them on an armed airship.
 
With the earlier Zeppelin dates, really armed dirigibles at that stage as I'm not sure you could build a rigid airship that early, you could put some of the contemporary manual machine guns on them. The Gatling and Nordenfelt guns and the Hotchkiss rotary canons are quasi-machine guns and they were used on naval vessels of the period. So it seems like a pretty simple leap to put them on an armed airship.
That, missiles and hand dropped bombs
 
That, missiles and hand dropped bombs
It occurs to me that you could probably get pretty far with some minor alterations to contemporary artillery shells and fuses. It wouldn't need to stand up to the stresses of being fired, so you make a cannister out of the cheapest sheet metal that will do the job, and basically fill it as if it were an artillery shell with a standard contact or time fuse. And off you go with your aerial bombing. Biggest hurdle would be a mechanism for dropping them, although you could get away with a hole in the bottom of the gondola with a grate over it when not in use.
 
It occurs to me that you could probably get pretty far with some minor alterations to contemporary artillery shells and fuses. It wouldn't need to stand up to the stresses of being fired, so you make a cannister out of the cheapest sheet metal that will do the job, and basically fill it as if it were an artillery shell with a standard contact or time fuse. And off you go with your aerial bombing. Biggest hurdle would be a mechanism for dropping them, although you could get away with a hole in the bottom of the gondola with a grate over it when not in use.
This is not the same scale or speed as a modern bomber. Realistically, airships of the 1880's would be around 30-50km/h so you'd have a pilot and a copilot/bomber/mechanic
 
The Zeppelin design was not the last word to be sure, but it did represent some real advances, notably in the matter of achieving large scale designs--much harder to do with pure pressure ships or semirigid designs of the type that actually emerged.

Anyway OP specifies Zeppelins.

And I don't see how stepping away from the rigid design helps enable earlier successes. Motive power is still motive power; at a given displacement volume with a given more or less streamline shape, you need the same power (assuming comparable propeller efficiencies) to drive it at a given speed. In addition to that, power rises as the cube of the airspeed. The aerodynamic forces acting on the body rise with the square of the airspeed. This determines the structural strength required. Indeed there are alternatives to making a rigid metal frame but they have their own drawbacks as well as advantages. As it happens, the ball has been moving toward the pressure ship court in the late 20th and 21st centuries, due mainly to advances in high tech fabric materials versus a slower pace in materials of they types we substitute for metal. But in 1890 I think the reverse would be true--the fabrics that innovators could work with were severely limited natural materials, subject to a great many drawbacks. Separating the outer hull fabric units, meant to withstand exterior aerodynamic forces and transfer to them to the rigid hull, from the inner volume gasbags, limiting the stresses they had to endure and enabling a choice of materials optimized toward successfully retaining hydrogen without worrying about other stresses such as standing up to high airspeed stresses, enabled the designers to arrive at least-bad solutions given the poor choices available.

Decades later, in the 1930s, Umberto Nobile was hired by Aeroflot in the Soviet Union, to develop airships for civil use in the USSR. He was not without his own pigheaded biases. He concluded that the mediocre success of his favored semirigid designs under his direction in the USSR had largely to do with Russian incompetence and superciliously advised the Soviets, as he was leaving, to focus on Zeppelin type designs since his own semirigids were allegedly too advanced for Russians to handle. However, that same decade witnessed the limited but to my mind still impressive successes of the American design for USS Akron and Macon, two rigids designed for helium inflation and nearly as large as Hindenburg, the ongoing success of the older Zeppelin products USS Los Angeles and the Graf Zeppelin, capstoned of course by the record of the Hindenburg itself. No nonrigid or semirigid design ever approached those giants in size nor in overall performance parameters.

If you want to beat the utility of the Zeppelin design you have your work cut out for you then, and I suspect that in 1890 you'd do better to attempt some sort of Zeppelin type design than fool around with allegedly simpler and lighter designs that actually put too much weight on organic materials of indifferent performance. Into the bargain--if you are a time traveler with secret access to a high powered computer capable of computational fluid dynamics analysis and other methods of brute-forcing calculations beyond normal human ability, you might do all right to fool around with pressure stabilized materials--otherwise, a huge advantage rigids had over other approaches was that the math of predicting stress concentrations could be greatly simplified via the rigid frames, enabling reasonable approximations to designs of adequate strength without being grossly overweight.

Indeed I think sloreck's ballpark estimates are correct. Broadly speaking, the same innovations that enabled aerodynamic flight were the same ones that enabled effective dirigible aerostatic flight. Power, and strength combined with lightness, were vital in each case, and airships are not generally speaking a form of flight that can be managed with primitive tech, no matter how many movie images love that trope.

The distinct advantage airships enjoyed over airplanes for a time was that making airships to large scale was feasible earlier, and that in turn enabled larger relative stocks of fuel and payloads, and thus approximated to an answer to the challenge of long range transoceanic scale ranges with decent payloads earlier. In military terms this meant larger warloads over longer ranges, but as wartime experiences proved this was more than offset by greater vulnerability due to being large (hence visible) and slow. The Germans went for high altitude to try and compensate, which ate into payload and exposed the ships to unforeseen high altitude winds as well as inadequately provided for foreseeable problems of oxygen depletion and extreme cold.

No matter what the design, pre-1900 airships would be dangerously slow, and fragile. Inability to maintain a given airspeed puts the ship at the mercy of winds faster than its maximum speed and renders them impractical for revenue service, being too dependent on winds to rely on.

IMHO, the window for commercial success of airships on a large scale was the 1920s. No earlier. It is my belief, more of a hope, that if airships were established in the '20s then come the challenges of the 1930s there would be adaptions that keep them in the game in a changed role and thus to the present day, but that is highly speculative.
 
This is not the same scale or speed as a modern bomber. Realistically, airships of the 1880's would be around 30-50km/h so you'd have a pilot and a copilot/bomber/mechanic
Yes. But that doesn't really affect wether or not the people in said airship will want to try bombing whatever is below them, and if the airship is anything other than a novelty they'll want to be dropping something bigger than handgrenades from it. Anyway, I wasn't really envisioning bombs like the kind used on bombers. Really, I was thinking of small-ish artillery shells of the sort used by field artillery and 4-6 inch naval pieces. With all of this the important limiting factor will be lifting capacity not speed.
 
Zeppelins/rigid airships have free rein for a while. You need to get HTA craft that can reach Zeppelin altitudes, and incendiary bullets - that is the combination that put an end to the "Zeppelin Menace" of WWI.
 
A fair number were brought down with ground fire too, and they are slow enough that given some means of detecting them at altitude I think just beefing up muzzle velocities a bit would put them in range of well aimed fire even at "height climber" altitudes--and height climber missions were brutal on the crews and reduced the payloads the missions could carry and called for airships that were rather dangerously fragile near sea level. Poorly charted and predicted high altitude winds ruined a number of Peter Strasser's attempted raids too.

I think conceiving of a Zeppelin as a bomber is a mistake. As naval scouts they could have been game changing against the RN or IJN--or a bold enough writer might turn the tables and write of an IJN airship fleet checking some of the advantages of the USN! It would be too bitter and tragic a project for me since I know Japan's position was too untenable to saved by such a single trick, but in some ways the Japanese situation in the early '40s lends itself to such an ATL treatment.

The real key role airships should have is logistical though.

Failure to develop the strengths and having them fail where they are weak is par for the military of course. Every fleet asset is under fire by a ruthless enemy after all, and the difficulty airships have dodging enemy fire is a fundamental flaw of all designs as far as a military is concerned.

The trick is to develop civil applications, something this thread is not going to focus on I suppose.
 
If you get Zeppelins in the mid-1870s, they can become a huge asset in exploration of Africa, remote parts of Asia etc. Also in supplying expeditions, airdropping supplies etc.
 
This thread is based on a similar thread which i read a few months back on this site .

In it ,the author hypothised that Germany reformed earlier in 1850 during the Luxembourg crisis and as a result ,
Zepplins ,steam cars and rifle technology came quicker than OTL .

Now the thread seems to have disappeared .

ANYWAY .

Now we have this thread!!!!!!!!!

How early could a zepplin be developed and started to be used .
Would armored Steam powered vehicles ( without rails) in the ACW have been theoretically possible ?
 

mad orc

Banned
A fair number were brought down with ground fire too, and they are slow enough that given some means of detecting them at altitude I think just beefing up muzzle velocities a bit would put them in range of well aimed fire even at "height climber" altitudes--and height climber missions were brutal on the crews and reduced the payloads the missions could carry and called for airships that were rather dangerously fragile near sea level. Poorly charted and predicted high altitude winds ruined a number of Peter Strasser's attempted raids too.

I think conceiving of a Zeppelin as a bomber is a mistake. As naval scouts they could have been game changing against the RN or IJN--or a bold enough writer might turn the tables and write of an IJN airship fleet checking some of the advantages of the USN! It would be too bitter and tragic a project for me since I know Japan's position was too untenable to saved by such a single trick, but in some ways the Japanese situation in the early '40s lends itself to such an ATL treatment.

The real key role airships should have is logistical though.

Failure to develop the strengths and having them fail where they are weak is par for the military of course. Every fleet asset is under fire by a ruthless enemy after all, and the difficulty airships have dodging enemy fire is a fundamental flaw of all designs as far as a military is concerned.

The trick is to develop civil applications, something this thread is not going to focus on I suppose.

It is going to focus on all applications ,even the civil ones .
 
There were of course operational dirigibles in the 1870s. The trouble was they were inadequately operational. Too lightweight for durability, engine installations too low in power/weight to drive it at speeds where it could assert decent control in the face of likely contrary wings, insufficient structural strength to endure trying to maneuver against them anyway--overall, before their time and not up to the eventual potential that superior engineering and superior materials would someday realize.

As long as the winds were not too adverse, sure, there were dirigibles in the 1870s. In fact in the middle of the US Civil War, Dr Solomon Andrews demonstrated a three-gasbag craft, named Aereon, that was capable of flying against modest winds with no engine power whatsoever. At the time Dr. Andrews was negotiating to be paid by Congress to supply his discovery to the Union war effort and refused to disclose the nature of his "secret" as he understood it, and since Congress declined to purchase it from him despite a successful demonstration flight, it has been left to the ages to speculate what he was doing. It seems plain to latter day speculators though that in fact what he had was a kind of pneumatic-wing glider with weight offset by hydrogen buoyant lift. When he took off he had an excess of lift over weight, and just as a powered dirigible can force itself down by leveraging thrust into downward lift, or net "Weight" force, via typical aircraft style holding the fuselage at an angle of attack, in reverse he could by braking his lift force with the hull at a suitable angle derive a forward thrust force against the wind. When the Aereon had risen as high as its pilot liked to go, by venting some lift gas Andrews could then descend with net weight, and again by reversing the aerodynamic angle, continue to generate a thrust against the wind. With large enough reserves of ballast and excess lift gas (above that needed to lift structure, pilot and any essential payload) he could alternate like that several times before being forced to land to replenish both lift gas and ballast supplies.

So, you can't get something for nothing, but you can get thrust without an engine or propeller. Andrews believed this would be more valuable than the tethered balloons the Army was already using, but for whatever reason Congress did not agree; I don't know what side President Lincoln was on.

Could an Aereon style alternating glider-reaction vehicle to coin an awkward phrase carry a useful machine gun? It would remain a sitting duck for ground based observers if it came low enough for the gun to be of much use I'd think, so I think no, probably not.

The name Aereon was revived a century later by an admirer who hoped to develop an advanced hybrid craft that would use buoyancy for partial lift and partially rely on aerodynamic lift, immortalized in John McPhee's Deltoid Pumpkin Seed (eventually the design evolved from imitating Andrews's triple hull to a computer-optimized shape verbally described by the title of the book).

In the half century since that project like most LTA projects I notice that something that had flown only in model form some 16 years ago when I was following an LTL listserve, under development in Britain that we fondly called "SkyCat," has been taken forward and I suspect is legally operational as a certificated design, but bought by some Very Big American Corporation with a famous name that eludes me for the moment, who gave it another name, but I recognize old SkyCat anyway. I dislike the notion airships are made better by being hybridized, I like them having balanced static lift so they are literally weightless--overall anyway. But SkyCat's design had it taking off in less than its own length--bear in mind though the very high tonnage version projected would be longer than a stadium! The idea was to get short poorly developed field STOL capability and to have that in tonnages that only Soviet designers had hitherto dared consider for any airborne vehicle, let alone a slow semibuoyant one!

It seems though that while the VBAC may have kept it in semiclassified obscurity they did at least follow through and develop it.
 
In civilian applications, I am working on something for colonial apartment. A massive issue was that everyone was getting sick, especially in East Asia. Now imagine if all the important people were just living in the sky, only coming down when necessary.
How high can a mosquito fly?
 
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