ThePest179
Banned
Considering how rampant Antisemitism was long before Hitler and the Nazis, who would be the most likely perpetrators of a genocide of Jews before the Nazis ever existed?
Earlier genocide of Jews?
- Thread starter ThePest179
- Start date
What is your definition of a genocide? Depending upon your definition, there may already be multiple OTL examples for you.
I'd say the reason they only hated them rather than totally wiping them out like happened to the various pagan populations who didn't convert. If they hadn't been 'useful' there'd have been far worse purges.
Not saying Christian Europe was being nice, just not as nasty as they were capable of.
Several accumulated historical reasons (almost entirely based on prejudice) that just snowballed into making European Jews a favourite scapegoat/punching-bag for various real or perceived disasters or injustices.
Did the prejudice have its roots in Roman times where Judea was a hotbed of rebellion and stubborn Judaism or did the prejudices begin to manifest after the fall of the Roman Empire? OR did the Antisemitism start going after the Christianization of the Roman Empire?
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
You've been warned over and over for these bloodthirsty scenarios. If you're going to post something like this, put some effort into it, don't just post creepy violence fantasies.
You're kicked for a week, during which time you'll be unable to post. Shape up or ship out.
Burton K Wheeler
Moderator
I'm not going to lock the thread, please use this opportunity to show the OP how a thoughtful discussion works.
lordapocalipsis
Banned
Maybe if Spanish Inquisición had aquired more power and somehow influenced strongtly in spanish Royalty, they could have a cruzade against jews?
Czarist Russia? There is certainly a tradition of pogroms and violence there. I doubt they could manage "industrial" genocide in the Nazi mold, but OTL was pretty bad as it was (largely eclipsed in common knowledge by the later actions of the Nazis) so, it's not too hard to imagine a scenario where it gets worse.
It likely wouldn't be paired with an attempt at world conquest and would hopefully be so inefficiently (thankfully) carried out that most Jews should at least have the chance to flee. Most likely they would end up in America (tons did OTL as it was), though the chance exists that some of the notions of establishing a Jewish "homeland" somewhere in Africa could get farther than they did historically.
It likely wouldn't be paired with an attempt at world conquest and would hopefully be so inefficiently (thankfully) carried out that most Jews should at least have the chance to flee. Most likely they would end up in America (tons did OTL as it was), though the chance exists that some of the notions of establishing a Jewish "homeland" somewhere in Africa could get farther than they did historically.
Dirk
Banned
There were certainly individuals and even rulers in antiquity who disliked Jews for their secretiveness, other-ness, and general refusal to at least pay lip service to the gods of their nation of residence. However, I wouldn't say that these people disliked Jews in particular, but any such tiny zealous cults in general.
Later the Romans (after Rome's official incorporation of Palestine as a province) got to dislike them mainly for their stubbornness and their refusal to worship the emperors.
When Christianity came to the fore the Jews were of course blamed for the death of Jesus, which made them "god killers" through some kind of twisted inheritable "blood guilt".
In addition a much larger fraction of them were wealthy and educated as opposed to non-Jews, engendering envy in Christians and Muslims who felt that they "deserved" better due to being part of the majority.
Also I've read that they were in some places the only people able to levy an interest rate on loans to Christians, due to some kind of biblical bar on Christian usury of Christians, and so they were much more likely to loan that Christians (since they were able to make a profit out of it), and unshrewd borrowers who ended up bankrupt would typically use the Jews' other-ness and perceived greed to get the loan negated...by intimidation or even lynching.
lordapocalipsis
Banned
Well, that could works, owever i don't remeber if it was before, when a King take many prisioners and carry to Babilonia, so that group will survive.
How about the Black Death, perhaps the Church blames Jews for that and start to hunt them?
And if the Inquisition had changed rather radically given the more fair treatment those accused got than in virtually any other court in Europe. And also should probably note that the Inquisition was a Royal organization.
They were different and in many cases had lots of money compared to most people (including nobility sometimes), which made Jews an easy scapegoat when something went wrong or if the king needed to distract people from something. Another reason lies in the money system, namely the Church didn't like loans, and Christians were discouraged from making or asking for them. Unfortunately when a king does something stupid like starting a war he can't afford he needs a loan, and turns to the Jews for it, since they aren't covered by the no loans thing. Well he gets the money, and a few years down the line can't pay it back. Well surprise, surprise it turns out the Jews have been doing *insert made up thing here* and need to be persecuted so they stop (a phrase here meaning so he doesn't have to pay them back.)
If I remember correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong) the Jews were blamed for the Black Plague, and as such were persecuted for it...
I'm no expert, but a variation where the black plague is longer and/or more severe, or Christian Europe just gets it in to their head to be harsher, could possibly result in more persecution...
Well, while jews where blamed during the Black Death for the pestilence, it was because of pre-existing prejudice, as opposed to the cause of widespread anti-semitism. "Retribution" against the Jews might be harsher though.
As horrible as it is to contemplate, Tsarist Russia would be a pretty likely candidate due to the rabid anti-semitism, however a wide scale attempt at eliminating the Jews might increase emigration to western nations such as the U.S. This could also lead to a fundamental change in the course of 20th century European history as figures such as Trotsky were russian Jews, and the nations of Europe would either be faced with a massive refugee problem or the moral issue of ethnic extermination.
Yuelang
Banned
That was Babylonian captivity, they are arguably much more "civilized" than the utterly Brutal and bloodthirsty Assyrians. Assyrians, who deem slaughtering entire male population of a nation and raping and enslaving their women as a standard method to subjungate a rival kingdom...
Holocaust level? I'd say impossible before late 19th century simply because there was no bureaucratic base and actual capacity to ship so many people in camps and kill them with such speed. (that's ignoring the fact that there was no Nazi equivalent who'd want to exterminate Jews as oppose to convert or expell them). Which is why pogroms ould never reach Holocaust levels, there simply was no capability to mold such violence on large, nation wide scale
Now, if you are talking about genocide in terms of removing the presence you had cases of countries giving Jews a choice of conversion or expulsion. But that's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation.
Now, if you are talking about genocide in terms of removing the presence you had cases of countries giving Jews a choice of conversion or expulsion. But that's not genocide, it's ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation.