dutch victory in the first 2 dutch english wars

[schrammy]

i was playing a game of age of empires 3 yesterday as the dutch an tough about how would history have unfolded if this little country would have been even more succesfull than it was in our TL.

between the year : (1652-1654) first anglo dutch war and the year (1665-1667) second anglo dutch war, the dutch and the english fought 2 rather indecisive wars that failed to break the english supramacy at sea but.

what if in 1 long or 2 short wars in this period of time the dutch where able to win and there for break the english naval supramacy, and lets say they them self keep being the stronges european sea power for about say the next 50 years.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

Well then the English will be a lot less willing to protect them from the French when the time comes. In fact, if this butterflies into the Stuarts retaining power (don't give me that look, butterflies are underestimated), then we'll see a long-lasting anti-Dutch coalition between the 2 of them.

The colonial fates of England and the Netherlands are quite possibly switched.

 

[Flocculencio]

Trouble with the Netherlands as a major colonial power is that unlike England, they have to look to their land defences as well as their navy. Whereas Britain can afford to piss off continental powers secure in the knowledge that anyone who wants to come at them is going to have to cross the Channel in the teeth of the Royal Navy, the Dutch have the disadvantage of having a much smaller population base and the necessity of beating off the French at home should they get into any colonial wars.

The Dutch might very well be able to defeat the French overseas but that's not much use with a French Army beseiging Amsterdam.

 

[schrammy]

so basicaly what you are saying is that there is no way the dutch could have hold on to be the biggest sea power for that long a time.

maybe they can come to some kind of understanding with the french and split the collonies up between them.

or hire them self an army of mercanaries?

 

[Flocculencio]

so basicaly what you are saying is that there is no way the dutch could have hold on to be the biggest sea power for that long a time.

maybe they can come to some kind of understanding with the french and split the collonies up between them.

or hire them self an army of mercanaries?

No I'm saying that they could have become the preeminent sea power but with the effect of leaving themselves woefully underpowered on land. And there's no real way they could hope to match up against France, even with mercenaries. France's sheer mass is pretty unstoppable.

They could come to an understanding with the French but since the French can hurl an army straight through Flanders at the first sign of trouble, said understanding would probably be very much in favour of France.

Plus you have to factor in the fact that the English aren't going to be sitting on their hands here. They might have been beaten twice but the shipyards aren't going to shut down because of that...especially if they seek an alliance of convenience with France. In that case, a combined Anglo-French navy could close the Channel while simultaneously ravaging the Dutch colonies as a French army moves into the Low Countries.

In my Anglo-Dutch TL, the Dutch managed to hold off the French but that was because they joined the United Kingdom. Basically my opinion is that the Netherlands just don't have the mass to become a preeminent power without an alliance or union with one of the other Powers.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket but I can't really see any way for the Dutch to pull this off.

Hmmm...unless...is it possible that Willem van Oranje-Nassau goes a-conquering and manages to incorporate some of the German principalities into the United Provinces? Might be a bit of a long shot though since that still means he'll be pissing off the French. I'm assuming here that he doesn't ascend the English throne in TTL.

What would this mean for the Stuarts though...I doubt that the nobles will allow James II to retain the throne and with William unacceptable who else might there be- perhaps the Glorious Revolution takes a different form with one of the major English noblemen taking the throne? Or maybe they decide to skip Mary and invite Anne Stuart to take the throne as they did OTL after William's death.

 

[fhaessig]

There's a way for the low country to get the critical mass needed to be secure on land and have a first class navy, but it requires an earlier PoD.

If Charles the Bold ( or the rash ) succeeds in unifying his far-flung holdings....

 

[Flocculencio]

There's a way for the low country to get the critical mass needed to be secure on land and have a first class navy, but it requires an earlier PoD.

If Charles the Bold ( or the rash ) succeeds in unifying his far-flung holdings....

This probably butterflies the Anglo-Dutch wars away though

 

[fhaessig]

This probably butterflies the Anglo-Dutch wars away though

Those we know, certainly.

However, there definitely will be wars between those two powers, over commercial and maritime rivalries. Since the 'Grand Duché d'Occident' costlines will include Northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands, as well as the main land trade roads toward Italy.

 

[Paul MacQ]

An Earlier Butterfly is the only way I can see the Dutch pulling this off

Spanish allowing some Earlier Dutch to settle in say the America (Say Modern Virginia Area)building up a Population fast to allow the Dutch to get a head start. So a couple of Hundred years head start would be needed .

 

[Andrei]

I don't think the Dutch would keep their naval supremacy for long .
The English would build a stronger navy and win against the Dutch , eventually. Holland is much smaller than England , and it has to worry about attacks from the continental powers as well.
It doesn't really matter how many times the English lose to the Dutch , one English victory is enough to crush Holland.
Think about how many times Sweden defeated Russia , but it took only one Russian victory to allow the Russians to dominate the Baltic Sea region.