Dutch take Martinique in 1674
- Thread starter M79
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Well taking Martinique was definitely possible, if the French hadn't become aware Martinique was his target they wouldn't have had time to prepare the defenses. And even then the French still got pretty lucky.
As for what happens next, worst case scenario the campaign still ends with Martinique if disease outbreaks prevent them from embarking for another island... Although I doubt it'd get that bad. So assuming De Ruyter can press on the other islands then possessed by the French were Grenada, St. Lucia, Guadeloupe, half of St. Kitts, half of St. Martin, St. Barths, and St. Croix... St. Lucia is a bit unclear though because the French colony there was established in 1674 and I'm not sure if that was before or after the Dutch attack on Martinique.
The most obvious targets seem to be St. Lucia (if the colony existed by July), it'd still have been dependent on Martinique at the time and would have been the most vulnerable. The other likely candidates are Martin and Croix, St. Martin because the Dutch already controlled the southern half of the island. And St. Croix because it's a part of the Virgin islands where the Dutch also already had some possessions (on Tortola). Croix was a good island for plantations as it was pretty flat for the most part, it had also already switched hands between colonial powers several times by this point. St. Barths might be occupied by people from St. Martin as an afterthought, it was a really insignificant island tbh.
Guadeloupe seems unlikely as it was one of France's biggest islands at the time and would be the best defended. Taking this one on top of Martinique with the resources allocated to De Ruyter seems like overreach. For the others I doubt the Dutch would be interested in having to share St. Kitts with the British. And I feel like they might be happy to leave Grenada isolated in the far south of the Caribbean, but maybe later in the war in a separate campaign?
Finally, what happens during the peace talks? IOTL the war ended with the French taking quite a bit of land from the Spanish Netherlands. Would the Dutch government want to hand one or two islands back in exchange for the French giving up more of their continental conquests? The sugar economy on the islands was only relatively young though so maybe the French wouldn't be as interested as they were IOTL in the 18th century.
As for what happens next, worst case scenario the campaign still ends with Martinique if disease outbreaks prevent them from embarking for another island... Although I doubt it'd get that bad. So assuming De Ruyter can press on the other islands then possessed by the French were Grenada, St. Lucia, Guadeloupe, half of St. Kitts, half of St. Martin, St. Barths, and St. Croix... St. Lucia is a bit unclear though because the French colony there was established in 1674 and I'm not sure if that was before or after the Dutch attack on Martinique.
The most obvious targets seem to be St. Lucia (if the colony existed by July), it'd still have been dependent on Martinique at the time and would have been the most vulnerable. The other likely candidates are Martin and Croix, St. Martin because the Dutch already controlled the southern half of the island. And St. Croix because it's a part of the Virgin islands where the Dutch also already had some possessions (on Tortola). Croix was a good island for plantations as it was pretty flat for the most part, it had also already switched hands between colonial powers several times by this point. St. Barths might be occupied by people from St. Martin as an afterthought, it was a really insignificant island tbh.
Guadeloupe seems unlikely as it was one of France's biggest islands at the time and would be the best defended. Taking this one on top of Martinique with the resources allocated to De Ruyter seems like overreach. For the others I doubt the Dutch would be interested in having to share St. Kitts with the British. And I feel like they might be happy to leave Grenada isolated in the far south of the Caribbean, but maybe later in the war in a separate campaign?
Finally, what happens during the peace talks? IOTL the war ended with the French taking quite a bit of land from the Spanish Netherlands. Would the Dutch government want to hand one or two islands back in exchange for the French giving up more of their continental conquests? The sugar economy on the islands was only relatively young though so maybe the French wouldn't be as interested as they were IOTL in the 18th century.
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The Dutch would be notably bigger players in the New World if they managed to gain Martinique and other Caribbean islands. While they were small in size they were far more profitable than the colonies in mainland North America due to the success of the sugar plantations fueled the (highly regretful) slave trade and the millions of slaves who worked on the plantations. With that I can also see the Dutch becoming more prominent in the Atlantic slave trade.
Now, what if De Ryuter took all the French sugar colonies in the Carribean in the French-Dutch War in the 1670s?
Please add St. Lucia to the French sugar colonies you have mentioned as St. Lucia was a French sugar colony by the 1674 pod.
Oh I actually meant to write St. Lucia in that comment but somehow I wrote Vincent instead lmao... Fixed it.
Well the Treaty of Westminster was territoriality a status quo ante bellum resolution in which the Dutch gave back New Netherlands in exchange for the English giving back the Dutch islands they had occupied in the Caribbean + it resolved the matter of England recognizing other Dutch colonies which hadn't been worked out yet with Breda (i.e. the Dutch acquisition of Suriname).
The English did end up partially breaking the treaty because they didn't give Tortola back, but everything else (Saba, Tobago, etc.) was eventually returned to the Dutch.
In the war with France there would be less incentive to return them since the Dutch lost no colonies to the French. And back in Europe France only controlled Maastricht at the end of the war IOTL, which they were already willing to return since their focus had shifted to acquisitions from Spain.
So as I mentioned in my first comment it comes down to what role the Dutch are willing to play in mediating between France and Spain instead. IOTL France made some major gains but also lost a couple of territories they had conquered in previous wars, namely Kortijk, Ath, and Binche. Perhaps the Dutch could dangle some Caribbean islands before France for further concessions, like the return of fortresses like Veurne, Ieper, or Tournai. But that doesn't mean they would, and neither does it mean the French will take that deal.
The English did end up partially breaking the treaty because they didn't give Tortola back, but everything else (Saba, Tobago, etc.) was eventually returned to the Dutch.
In the war with France there would be less incentive to return them since the Dutch lost no colonies to the French. And back in Europe France only controlled Maastricht at the end of the war IOTL, which they were already willing to return since their focus had shifted to acquisitions from Spain.
So as I mentioned in my first comment it comes down to what role the Dutch are willing to play in mediating between France and Spain instead. IOTL France made some major gains but also lost a couple of territories they had conquered in previous wars, namely Kortijk, Ath, and Binche. Perhaps the Dutch could dangle some Caribbean islands before France for further concessions, like the return of fortresses like Veurne, Ieper, or Tournai. But that doesn't mean they would, and neither does it mean the French will take that deal.
To build further upon the proposition of the Dutch returning the islands however. Let's first assume that by the end of the war the Dutch have occupied all French islands (possibly excluding Guadeloupe, but with the POD it's certainly possible that a second expedition is sent to take it), but also that the Dutch are nervous enough in 1678 about the French border shifting closer for them to mediate between France and Spain.
They propose to hand back most of the islands they had captured since 1674 with the exception of St. Croix, St. Martin, and Grenada.
In exchange the French have to return more of the Southern Netherlands to Spain (the returns of OTL + Ypres, Tournai, and Maubeuge). In the grand scale of things this is not a major concession from France since they also conquered Franche Comte in this same conflict.
First map, all lands that are returned, both recent occupations and old conquests.
Second map, de jure borders in the Caribbean after the peace.
If the next couple of wars go in a similar way as IOTL this could actually become very interesting, since there was only one more war in which the French made gains against the Spanish Netherlands, the War of the Reunions, when they conquered Luxembourg. The following wars after that (9YW and WotSS) resulted in territorial losses for France in the Low Countries because the other great powers finally began ganging up against France. Assuming the borders shift to a similar extend during the subsequent conflicts ATL we could actually see some major cities and fortresses ending up back in Habsburg hands, like Lille or Valenciennes.
They propose to hand back most of the islands they had captured since 1674 with the exception of St. Croix, St. Martin, and Grenada.
In exchange the French have to return more of the Southern Netherlands to Spain (the returns of OTL + Ypres, Tournai, and Maubeuge). In the grand scale of things this is not a major concession from France since they also conquered Franche Comte in this same conflict.
First map, all lands that are returned, both recent occupations and old conquests.
Second map, de jure borders in the Caribbean after the peace.
If the next couple of wars go in a similar way as IOTL this could actually become very interesting, since there was only one more war in which the French made gains against the Spanish Netherlands, the War of the Reunions, when they conquered Luxembourg. The following wars after that (9YW and WotSS) resulted in territorial losses for France in the Low Countries because the other great powers finally began ganging up against France. Assuming the borders shift to a similar extend during the subsequent conflicts ATL we could actually see some major cities and fortresses ending up back in Habsburg hands, like Lille or Valenciennes.
If returned to Habsburg hands and with minimal butterflies, the enlarged Southern Netherlands/ Belgium would take up French territory in otl since 1678 and would not be regained in the next wars between France and Spain, Austria (the Holy Roman Empire) and the Netherlands in the Southern Netherlands/ Belgium, resulting in Lille, Cambrai or Valenciennes being Spanish, Austrian, Dutch and Belgian controlled since 1689 after losing Ypres, Tournai and Maubeuge in 1678 to the Spanish Netherlands with minimal butterflies.
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St. Lucia was already ceded to France by 1667's Treaty of Breda and the fact would be known among the French, English, Dutch and Danish-Norwegian signatories of that treaty by 1674. St. Lucia would be treated as if it were French regardless of the French colony set up there.
Assuming the Dutch took as many of the French Caribbean islands as of 1674 (including Guadeloupe and Tobago) and hold them, the net effect would be the Dutch holding Grenada, Martinique, St. Lucia, Tobago, St. Croix, Guadeloupe, St. Bartholomew and the French halves of of St. Kitts and St. Martin, resulting in the Dutch being greater participants in the Atlantic Slave Trade at the expense of the French. Even with minimal butterflies, it would mean poorer French naval performance (since the French would need to focus on mainland Europe as a mainland European nation) and St. Bartholomew and St. Croix would be Dutch instead of French and Swedish and Dutch instead of French, Danish and American controlled respectively while St. Martin would be 100% Dutch controlled instead of 44% Dutch controlled and 56% French controlled. Also, even with minimal butterflies from this scenario, it would be possible for France to have a weaker Mediterranean Fleet and fail to conquer Minorca compared to otl in the 7 Years War and for France to lose St. Vincent and the Grenadines (invaded instead of Martinique, St. Lucia and St. Vincent and the Grenadines) and Dominica (invaded instead of Guadeloupe). Then, the 7 Years War would result in France losing Canada in exchange for getting back St. Vincent and the Grenadines (otl Martinique) and no exchange of Minorca for Dominica (otl Guadeloupe). The India for Sumatra exchanges and Goree for Dunkirk usage exchanges proceed as in otl.
In the American Revolution, the French would recapture and lose Dominica in 1778 and 1779 after British naval victories, followed by St. Vincent and the Grenadines after British naval victories in 1780-1782. The American Revolution would proceed as in otl for America and Spain in battle outcomes while the greater Dutch colonial empire and navy would be more than negated by the weaker and more defeated than otl French colonial empire and navy. While the Dutch would maintain their otl territorial extent plus the Dutch Caribbean islands controlled by them instead of by France (same result of Dutch participation and defeat in the American Revolution as in otl), the French would lose Dominica and St. Vincent and the Grenadines with the only net gain for France being American independence (which would be more of an American victory than a French victory and in similar circumstances to otl, making French participation in the American Revolution more of a French defeat than a French victory).
In the American Revolution, the French would recapture and lose Dominica in 1778 and 1779 after British naval victories, followed by St. Vincent and the Grenadines after British naval victories in 1780-1782. The American Revolution would proceed as in otl for America and Spain in battle outcomes while the greater Dutch colonial empire and navy would be more than negated by the weaker and more defeated than otl French colonial empire and navy. While the Dutch would maintain their otl territorial extent plus the Dutch Caribbean islands controlled by them instead of by France (same result of Dutch participation and defeat in the American Revolution as in otl), the French would lose Dominica and St. Vincent and the Grenadines with the only net gain for France being American independence (which would be more of an American victory than a French victory and in similar circumstances to otl, making French participation in the American Revolution more of a French defeat than a French victory).
During the French Revolution, the British, without having to take Martinique, St. Lucia, Tobago and Guadeloupe early, would be able to blockade Haiti more effectively. The existence of Dutch Grenada right next to St. Vincent and the Grenadines would end Dutch Grenada as soon as news of the French Revolution replacing the Stadholder of the Netherlands with a Batavian Republic resulted in St. Vincent and the Grenadines being used as a base to successfully capture Grenada in 1796. The island of Trinidad might avoid capture with the dispersal of British troops to St. Vincent and the Grenadines during the French Revolution. The Haitian Revolution would see fewer slaves on Haiti with the permanent losses to France of Martinique, St. Lucia, Tobago and Guadeloupe to Dutch control and Goree and the Senegal River still left British controlled as the French couldn't exchange St. Vincent and the Grenadines and Grenada respectively for Goree and the Senegal River as St. Vincent and the Grenadines would be permanently lost to military action instead of territorial exchanges with Britain for Goree and the still Dutch Grenada couldn't be exchanged for resumed French control of the Senegal River. St. Lucia would be Dutch for the American and French Revolutions and the British would have to successfully retake and defend Dominica instead of St. Lucia by military force during the American Revolution, leading to Dominica being British held without the need to return St. Lucia to France at the end of the American Revolution, but also leaving St. Lucia permanently Dutch controlled rather than temporarily French and temporarily British controlled during the American Revolution. As a result, there would be fewer slaves on Haiti during the French Revolution to revolt for freedom in the Haitian Revolution, but a bigger proportion of the slaves of Haiti would revolt as the French would be exploiting and treating worse than otl a bigger proportion of the slaves at Haiti to deal with the Dutch control of Martinique, St. Lucia, Tobago and Guadeloupe and the British control of Goree and the Senegal River lowering French sugar revenues. Eventually, the Haitian slaves, determined to gain their freedom, would gain their freedom and independence in 1804 and with British support. The Treaty of Amiens would leave the Dutch losing Grenada and Ceylon permanently, but permanent losses of France and Spain in the same treaty would be the same as the treaty's otl counterpart, just with Minorca being returned in exchange for Trinidad to ensure the conquest of Minorca in 1782 wasn't in vain and the British failure of conquering Trinidad in 1797 wasn't in vain as well rather than Minorca being returned for free to ensure the conquest of Minorca in 1782 wasn't in vain because the British successfully conquered Trinidad in 1797 and could keep it without exchanging for Minorca. Otherwise, in 1815-1819, Trinidad could be ceded by Spain to Britain to protect British Tobago. Or, Trinidad could be captured in 1807-1808 as Britain capturing Trinidad would require fewer troops than capturing Venezuela and Britain planned to capture Venezuela that timeframe before being diverted to Spain for the Peninsular War that timeframe and since Trinidad would be lost by Spain as an enemy of Britain during the Napoleonic Wars, it would be lost by Spain at the Congress of Vienna ending the Napoleonic Wars despite Spain and Britain being aligned with each other at the congress.
The British capture of St. Lucia, Tobago, Trinidad (if Dutch colonized) and the remaining Dutch controlled Caribbean islands would occur in 1803 as in otl, but with the conquest of St. Lucia and Tobago from the Batavian Republic instead of from France. Diamond Rock would stay Dutch instead of British and French controlled for the Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815) until the fall of Dutch Martinique and French Guinea in 1809 to Britain and of French Santo Domingo to Spain, following which, the Dutch would lose Guadeloupe in 1810. In the Congress of Vienna, the Dutch would permanently lose South Africa, St. Lucia and Tobago, while French permanent losses other than St. Lucia and Tobago were the same as otl version of the same congress.
By the end of the Congress of Vienna, the French would only have French Guiana as a sugar colony in the Americas and France would be without sugar colonies in the Caribbean, Mauritius and Seychelles. Presumably, the French Navy would be weaker than otl and would be less likely to participate in colonialism of new French colonies from 1816 onwards. Or the 2nd and 3rd French Revolutions in 1830 and 1848 might be shifted forward. Or French military performance in Algeria, Morocco, the Crimean War, Vietnam, Italy, the North German Confederation and France and Tunisia would be worse than otl. If somehow, despite the lack of Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew to France in the late 19th and early 20th century to France, global/ wider history proceeded as in otl including both world wars, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew would be Dutch controlled instead of French controlled and would be under temporary British control and occupation from 1940-1945 while French Guiana and the other French colonies which declared for Free France would declare for Free France and the French naval ships carrying the French gold reserves would seek refuge in French Guiana (its harbour at Cayenne having been deepened as the only French harbour in South America and with easy access to the Caribbean and the warmer climates of South America and the Caribbean). The French fleet would be asked to intern itself in the United States or in French Guyana's Cayenne before its destruction and damage to its surviving ships at Mers-el-Kebir.
After WW2, the Cold War and decolonization, the French colonial empire would be reduced to its otl size today, but without Martinique, Guadeloupe, French St. Martin and St. Bartholomew. Martinique, Guadeloupe, French St. Martin and St. Bartholomew, from the pod in 1674 to today, would have been Dutch colonized, settled, culturally influenced and oppressed instead of French colonized, settled, culturally influenced and oppressed. The Dutch would be the target of anti-colonialism in Martinique, Guadeloupe, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew instead of France and Sweden, yet, people on those islands would have colonial, cultural, cuisine and migration ties with the Dutch in the Netherlands than with the French in France and the Swedes in Sweden while cities on those islands would be named after Dutch people rather than French and Swedish people. The Dutch would also be associated more with slavery (ended by the Dutch in the Caribbean, in Suriname and everywhere else under Dutch rule in 1863 and the French in the Caribbean, French Guyana and everywhere else under French rulr in 1848) and colonialism in those islands in contrast to the French in otl. Demographically, Dutch colonialism would bring Indonesians instead of French colonialism bringing in Indians and Vietnamese to the above Caribbean islands.
The British capture of St. Lucia, Tobago, Trinidad (if Dutch colonized) and the remaining Dutch controlled Caribbean islands would occur in 1803 as in otl, but with the conquest of St. Lucia and Tobago from the Batavian Republic instead of from France. Diamond Rock would stay Dutch instead of British and French controlled for the Napoleonic Wars (1803-1815) until the fall of Dutch Martinique and French Guinea in 1809 to Britain and of French Santo Domingo to Spain, following which, the Dutch would lose Guadeloupe in 1810. In the Congress of Vienna, the Dutch would permanently lose South Africa, St. Lucia and Tobago, while French permanent losses other than St. Lucia and Tobago were the same as otl version of the same congress.
By the end of the Congress of Vienna, the French would only have French Guiana as a sugar colony in the Americas and France would be without sugar colonies in the Caribbean, Mauritius and Seychelles. Presumably, the French Navy would be weaker than otl and would be less likely to participate in colonialism of new French colonies from 1816 onwards. Or the 2nd and 3rd French Revolutions in 1830 and 1848 might be shifted forward. Or French military performance in Algeria, Morocco, the Crimean War, Vietnam, Italy, the North German Confederation and France and Tunisia would be worse than otl. If somehow, despite the lack of Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew to France in the late 19th and early 20th century to France, global/ wider history proceeded as in otl including both world wars, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew would be Dutch controlled instead of French controlled and would be under temporary British control and occupation from 1940-1945 while French Guiana and the other French colonies which declared for Free France would declare for Free France and the French naval ships carrying the French gold reserves would seek refuge in French Guiana (its harbour at Cayenne having been deepened as the only French harbour in South America and with easy access to the Caribbean and the warmer climates of South America and the Caribbean). The French fleet would be asked to intern itself in the United States or in French Guyana's Cayenne before its destruction and damage to its surviving ships at Mers-el-Kebir.
After WW2, the Cold War and decolonization, the French colonial empire would be reduced to its otl size today, but without Martinique, Guadeloupe, French St. Martin and St. Bartholomew. Martinique, Guadeloupe, French St. Martin and St. Bartholomew, from the pod in 1674 to today, would have been Dutch colonized, settled, culturally influenced and oppressed instead of French colonized, settled, culturally influenced and oppressed. The Dutch would be the target of anti-colonialism in Martinique, Guadeloupe, St. Martin and St. Bartholomew instead of France and Sweden, yet, people on those islands would have colonial, cultural, cuisine and migration ties with the Dutch in the Netherlands than with the French in France and the Swedes in Sweden while cities on those islands would be named after Dutch people rather than French and Swedish people. The Dutch would also be associated more with slavery (ended by the Dutch in the Caribbean, in Suriname and everywhere else under Dutch rule in 1863 and the French in the Caribbean, French Guyana and everywhere else under French rulr in 1848) and colonialism in those islands in contrast to the French in otl. Demographically, Dutch colonialism would bring Indonesians instead of French colonialism bringing in Indians and Vietnamese to the above Caribbean islands.
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I think you need to put post #13 and #14 in table format in order to make it a bit more clear....all the islands, colonies, treaties and periods make it a bit foggy
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