Because Hitler had a secret overwhelming desire to be blackmailed by the "Slavic Untermensch" of course.
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Dunkirk Disaster causes Spain and Soviet Union to join Axis.
- Thread starter John Gault
- Start date
Because Hitler had a secret overwhelming desire to be blackmailed by the "Slavic Untermensch" of course.
Not just be blackmailed, but but to put his country's entire economic foundation on the continued goodwill of Stalin's Soviet Union.Because Hitler had a secret overwhelming desire to be blackmailed by the "Slavic Untermensch" of course.
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As late as Sibuyan Sea Japanese battleship fleets were wading through 300+ sorties and remained in fighting condition. And the Brits are most assuredly going to bring way more ships and way better AA to the party than the Japanese did, against much less experienced strike pilots. Not to mention the Brits have carriers, need I remind you.
And even if you fiat the Germans successfully landing - you've already fiated the Luftwaffe not just beating the RAF but grinding them into dust in two fucking weeks, after all - then there's the problem that the Brits are going to immediately counterattack with multiple armored divisions and likely chemical weapons.
@John Gault I really am confused as to what you're trying to do here.
I think it's awesome to propose scenarios and discuss, but this is the 4th thread in a row where you are proposing a scenario that people FAR more knowledgeable than me are telling you is completely far fetched.
At some point, do you think it might be prudent to do some research prior to suggesting scenarios that can be dismissed by even a relative amateur such as myself?
WW2 is a FASCINATING subject and I what I love about this board is learning how to question my preconceptions about it.
I think it's awesome to propose scenarios and discuss, but this is the 4th thread in a row where you are proposing a scenario that people FAR more knowledgeable than me are telling you is completely far fetched.
At some point, do you think it might be prudent to do some research prior to suggesting scenarios that can be dismissed by even a relative amateur such as myself?
WW2 is a FASCINATING subject and I what I love about this board is learning how to question my preconceptions about it.
Not so much. Stalin wanted territory - Baltic states, Moldavia, and he eyed Romania and Bulgaria. Otherwise kiss the CommuNazi alliance goodbye.
Not so much. It wasn't a nuke the Russians or the West was as afriad of. And besides, Germany lacked the factories to produce the quantity you're describing - B-17s et al will still pound German cities and factories like the fist of an angry god.
Mostly in the form of territory or sphere area after the war. Namely the Raj and Persia - on paper. Again, the Soviets on their own lack the logistical resources to pull off escapades like that.
And the Jumo 004B has what, a 25-hour half-life? Maybe the 004D has a 35-hour half-life? Without a massive boost access to steel alloying materials their technology still has major problems in implementation. Never mind the BMW 018, BMW 028, or HeS 011. Have you also seen their later Me 262 designs and what they were proposing to do with the cockpit...?
US won't stand by while Russia, Germany, Italy, and Japan start uniting Eurasia and parts of Africa under one political alliance. They'll be in the war faster than OTL.
V2s won't be enough and Me 262s won't be enough. Read about landings for the latter and failure rates for the former. It'll scare the UK certainly but they will not have been idle - look for Vampires to start showing up with Canada becoming a giant factory for the Allied war effort.
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The Germans were straining every nerve to get jets into service, while the British were just dawdling along with their own programme, yet still had jets in front-line units before the Germans did. It would have been far easier for the UK to accelerate its programme than it would Germany. I'd imagine Vampires and long-nacelle Meteors would be in squadrons by mid-1944.
This comment betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the Soviet and German interpretations of the political situation in 1940. I'll quote what I had to say about this in another thread.
The Germans assumed (correctly) that with the Soviet offer, the Soviets would be doing the expanding, and they would do the dying. Under this scenario Stalin has exactly zero reason not to press his advantage, and Germany has exactly zero reason to meekly accept.
Keep Hirth's original team under Von Ohain together and keep the HeS 30 on its original schedule to get more German jets going. Keep BMW focused on its 018 design instead of pushing its 003 design and maybe Germany gets the powerful jets it really wants in mid-1944.
Yep. The Nazis are allowed incredible amounts of foresight, and the Allies are blind as bats. Such is the fate of most Axis victory timelines.it is but sometimes it seems only one side get to see the potential benefit from it even when it the side that is least well placed to take advantage of it
(but yeah it's also me being grumpy so don't take too seriously
It is a function of just how badly outmatched and ill-prepared they were for the war they started. That great disparity is what makes WW2 what ifs both immensely fascinating and incredibly frustrating, depending on the context of the discussion. Toying with the mechanics and limits of a partially developed Central European country taking on the rest of the world is fun if you do it honestly. When you just keep beating a dead horse and need to abandon intellectual honesty to suspiciously get a result at all costs, on the other hand... yeah.
it is but sometimes it seems only one side get to see the potential benefit from it even when it's the side that is least well placed to take advantage of it
(but yeah it's also me being grumpy so don't take too seriously
Socratic method - Wikipedia
Sometimes it just seems like only one side gets the limelight or better treatment. Sometimes it actually *is*. And if a bit of grumpy is the worst thing either of us deal with today then call it blessed and keep rollin'.
mial42
Gone Fishin'
With the benefit of hindsight, Germany has one very good reason to accept: a war with the USSR has the potential to destroy them as OTL.
Yes. That is the same hindsight that would tell them there is an obvious alternative to being so dependent on, and easily blackmailable by, the Soviets: don't start a war with everybody else! The Anglo-Americans are more than capable of destroying Germany even without the Soviets anyway.
But of course the Nazis didn't have this hindsight. Perhaps more to the point, I think we need to grapple with the mind-warping idea that the Third Reich was not a "normal" state concerned with "normal" things such as self-preservation and survival. This is easy to do on paper but much harder to do when discussing alternate history. Imagine you give Hitler the hindsight we're discussing, what do you think his reaction would be? That a Soviet entry into, and at some point leadership of, the Axis is the only solution? In his worldview the Soviets are remote-run by the "international Jewish conspiracy" out to utterly annihilate Germany. If that's your mentality then obviously an alliance with them is impossible. Even if you assume in this scenario that Hitler becomes convinced the Bolsheviks can be "pried away from their Jewish masters" or some such nonsensical rationalisation, there is still the problem of junior partnership. If Germany cannot become a world power but is forced instead to play wingman to a bigger ally (the Soviets in this case) then in Hitler's mind all is lost anyway, because the Nazi worldview divides the world in winners (who eat) and losers (who starve). Might as well roll the dice and accept the consequences if it goes poorly - he'd rather see Germany razed to the ground than still extant and not a world power.
When the man in charge of the whole country has that mentality it becomes apparent just how narrow the window would be for any meaningful German-Soviet cooperation beyond 1941. The Nazi worldview is so mad that even hindsight wouldn't save it, and that's saying something - because its problem is not in the logical chain of conclusions, but in the beginning assumptions, which are literally out of this world.