dominion vs. protectorate (colour shading questions)

Yes, it's a colour scheme thread. If you're a fan of the "use whatever colour you like" concept, his thread is not for you.

Generally speaking, the darker ("dominion") shade is used for regions that have more local government freedom compared to the core state region, and the paler ("protectorate") shade is used for regions that have less local government freedom. At least, that's the theory I had been working under.

That does, however, create some oddities.

French Empire: I have seen the paler shade used for French Morocco and Tunisia. Here, it indicates a local puppet ruler, and so matches the overall plan in the outline above.

British Empire: Dominions are typically darker (matching the basic concept outlined above), but princely states typically have been shaded in the paler colour. I guess as they are puppet states that makes sense.

Soviet Union: SSRs (e.g., Ukraine) are typically darker when highlighted at all. ASSRs (e.g., Yakutia, Karelia) have not traditionally been highlighted. In line with the British Empire model, it might make sense to highlight them in the paler colour. The darker colour wouldn't make sense, as it would imply that SSRs and ASSRs have the same level of autonomy. The counterpoint of course is that the autonomy of these regions may be a political fiction.

USA, Canada, Australia: Territories have been traditionally been highlighted in a darker shade. According to the basic idea outlined above, that should imply that these areas have more local autonomy than established states. I'm no expect in their domestic politics, but I always thought they had less, no?

As far as I am aware, the darker/paler shades have not been widely used for any other nation.

So I guess there are three questions here...

If the shading paradigm were to be used for soviet SSRs and ASSRs, what shades would make sense?

Am I mistaken in thinking that US/Canadian/Australian territories had less local government, or should they properly be shaded in the paler colour?

Are there any other states or empires to which these schemes could logically be applied? I'm thinking China (Qing and PRC) and ancient Rome are the most likely candidates. Given the increased levels of local government (relative to England), Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland might plausibly have the darker shade too.
 
Darker/lighter shades typically aren't applied to the Soviet Union, at least as far as I've seen. Usually all the SSRs are colored the same as Russia, and the ASSRs are never shown.
 
Yes, it's a colour scheme thread. If you're a fan of the "use whatever colour you like" concept, his thread is not for you.

Generally speaking, the darker ("dominion") shade is used for regions that have more local government freedom compared to the core state region, and the paler ("protectorate") shade is used for regions that have less local government freedom. At least, that's the theory I had been working under.


No that's not quite right.

Dominions were mainly a feature of the British Empire and I remember when the colour scheme came in for both the dominions and protectorates. For the dominions, the colour shading came in first and it was the darker shading used to denote that a particular colony was gaining a status almost equal to that of the mother country itself (not that it was having more local government freedom compared to to the core state region) and was not really an extension of the mother country itself anymore (as colonies legally were).

It was only later that the protectorate shading came in to denote those territories which were never actually colonies (and thus never legally extensions of the mother country) in the first place or were not being actually occupied (with occupation being shown in the same colour since in most cases occupation saw the occupying country assume complete control over the governance of an occupied area in ways not too dissimilar from colonies though in some cases the occupied territories were never considered to be legally a part of the occupying country even by the occupying power itself - these maps are meant to show the de facto and de jure situations after all and in many cases occupied territories are de facto administered much like colonies). So a protectorate was a territory in which the foreign power (usually a colonial power) had some kind of formal role in either the administration of the territory or in conducting the foreign affairs on behalf of the protectorate but without actually annexing the protectorate as a colony. This is why for instance Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and some Central American republics have been shown as United States protectorates at points in time because at those points in time they had signed treaties with the US which gave the US a significant role in parts of the administration of the country itself (sometimes termed as being in a fiscal receivership relationship, sometimes aimed specific foreign affairs goals (like preventing European powers from intervening to obtain money owed to them)). In the cases of Cuba and Panama especially there were additional treaties which gave the US the right to intervene in the country's domestic affairs.

In the case of Cuba, this colour scheme adequately shows the situation in 1917 when Cuba was still under the 1903 treaty with the US (which essentially made it a US protectorate) but with the US having sent forces to occupy eastern Cuba to protect US property and interest there as a result of a revolt connected to the sugar plantations. So western Cuba continues to be shown in the protectorate colour and eastern Cuba is shown as occupied.

That does, however, create some oddities.

French Empire: I have seen the paler shade used for French Morocco and Tunisia. Here, it indicates a local puppet ruler, and so matches the overall plan in the outline above.

British Empire: Dominions are typically darker (matching the basic concept outlined above), but princely states typically have been shaded in the paler colour. I guess as they are puppet states that makes sense.

Princely states were protectorates. The term is just a good way of describing all the protectorates under the British Raj.

In the British system there was a distinction between a protectorate and a protected state, but in essence protected states are protectorates with more control over local affairs as in neither case is the territory actually annexed or occupied and many local structures of governance are left in place.

Soviet Union: SSRs (e.g., Ukraine) are typically darker when highlighted at all. ASSRs (e.g., Yakutia, Karelia) have not traditionally been highlighted. In line with the British Empire model, it might make sense to highlight them in the paler colour. The darker colour wouldn't make sense, as it would imply that SSRs and ASSRs have the same level of autonomy. The counterpoint of course is that the autonomy of these regions may be a political fiction.

In some maps the non-RSFSR SSRs and ASSRs are shown this way, but that is not in conformity with the more widely used worlda and QBAM colour schemes like RCS, TRCS and I think TACOS and was certainly never the case with the original UCS when used as intended.

Usually that is just the map author's use of different colours to highlight a perceived relationship i.e. that the other SSRs were in a different relationship from the USSR than the RSFSR, which was not actually the case since ALL SSRs including the RSFSR were in the same relationship with the USSR; the RSFSR may have been the most populous SSR and the site of the capital but for its supposed dominance the RSFSR, Russians more often than not were not supreme leaders of the Soviet Union...only Lenin, Khrushchev, and Gorbachev were fully Russian (governing for 17 years between them); Malenkov was Macedonian-Russian (ruled for 2 years), Chernenko was Ukrainian-Russian as was Brezhnev I think (with 6 years of sole rule or nearly sole between them...most of that being Brezhnev who governed as part of a troika from 1964 until 1977), Andropov was of Don Cossack origin (ruled for about a 1 year and change) and of course Stalin was of Georgian-Ossetian origin (with about 28-29 years of sole rule under his belt). Other who participated in supremely ruling the USSR in a troika including Kamenev (Jewish/Russian), Zinoviev (Jewish/Ukrainian), Beria (Mingrelian..basically Georgian), Molotov (Russian), Kosygin (Russian), Mikoyan (Armenian) and Podgorny (Ukrainian).

In total Russians (exclusively Russian that is) ruled the USSR as sole rulers for about 17 of the USSR's 69 years, Stalin had about 28 years of sole rule, troikas (always involving some non-Russians be it Ukrainians, Armenians or Georgians) ruled the USSR for 16 years, and mixed Russians or Ukrainians (Macedonian-Russians, Ukrainian-Russians) ruled solely for about 8 years. Even if you included the mixed Russians (and Chernenko may have been fully Ukrainian), then Russians as an ethnic group had sole supreme authority in the USSR for about a third of the time it existed.




USA, Canada, Australia: Territories have been traditionally been highlighted in a darker shade. According to the basic idea outlined above, that should imply that these areas have more local autonomy than established states. I'm no expect in their domestic politics, but I always thought they had less, no?

I seem to remember the colour for the territories in those federal systems coming in much later than the dominion and protectorate colour. I can't remember the reasoning behind it, but I suspect it was a need to re-use a colour shading (dark, normal or light being the three basic options) for these countries wherein they never had dominions of their own (after all as as republic it was technically and legally impossible for the USA to have dominions based on the British system and with Canada and Australia these countries never had their own dominions having been dominions themselves - plus with the Dominion shade no longer being used after 1949-1950 when the very nature of the Commonwealth was changed such that dominion status was no longer necessary as a requirement to be a part of it and various countries such as Canada, Australia, etc establishing separate citizenships from that of the United Kingdom then using the system of darker shades for Canadian and Australian territories would be fine for the most part).

As far as I am aware, the darker/paler shades have not been widely used for any other nation.

Not many other states had dominions and few modern federal states have federal territories as well of any significant size to be noticeable on the worlda maps)

So I guess there are three questions here...

If the shading paradigm were to be used for soviet SSRs and ASSRs, what shades would make sense?

None. The SSRs are all equal in legal status and therefore no different from each other than two French departments are to each other or two US states are in a legal sense. The ASSRs are subdivisions of the SSRs with more autonomy, but the various colour schemes were intended to show countries and externally ruled/controlled/influenced territories. Hence there isn't a strong system for showing internal differences in status within a country (otherwise there would probably have to be a way to show Sabah and Sarawak as being different from other Malaysian states and probably show Quebec as being a bit different from other Canadian provinces). This is shown by the fact that the current system for showing territories is basically a recycling of the unused theoretical dominion shading for countries that never had dominions historically (so for the purposes of maps showing the OTL situation this was fine). But not every map uses this and some maps just don't show the internal divisions or don't use the territory colour.

Am I mistaken in thinking that US/Canadian/Australian territories had less local government, or should they properly be shaded in the paler colour?

Yes, they have less local government, but no they should not be shaded paler. Otherwise you run the risk of not being able to differentiate Cuba (independent country, but a protectorate of the United States) from Puerto Rico (an actual American territory) from 1903-1934. Plus its not inconceivable that in the future some Pacific countries might enter into a protectorate relationship with Australia. You also run the risk of confusion over whether certain Australian territories are actually Australian territories (integral parts of Australia and ruled as such) or protectorates (something entirely different).

Are there any other states or empires to which these schemes could logically be applied? I'm thinking China (Qing and PRC) and ancient Rome are the most likely candidates.

Possibly. I think the Roman Empire included protectorates. And various Chinese dynasties had vassal states and protectorates. So sure.

Not sure about any dominion shading for them though.


Given the increased levels of local government (relative to England), Scotland, Wales, and N. Ireland might plausibly have the darker shade too.

No. Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland remain distinctly parts of the United Kingdom and are not considered, nor is it likely that they would become equal in status to that of the United Kingdom as outlined in the Balfour Declaration and Statute of Westminster. If any were to become equal in status to the UK then they would simply become independent now since dominion status has no effective bearing on how a territory needs to be displayed on a map after 1950.

Additionally unlike all historical dominions, these three territories are integral parts of the UK with full representation in the British Parliament (unlike Canada or Australia as dominions or even the various US territories within the US federal system).
 
Thanks Chris, for that long and thorough answer.

Dominions, as a contemporary member of the British Empire would have understood it, didn't really exist in any other polity I am aware of. The Roman Empire's tetrarchy period comes close, although there it was more intended to be four co-equal polities rather than the parent-child relationship envisioned in the British Empire.

I think everyone would agree with me when I say it seems a waste to use a very clear graphic (dark shade) for a single political relationship that didn't really exist elsewhere in time or space.

I can get behind the paler shading being used to indicate protectorate/princely state.

The base shade indicates "motherland", colonies, and conquered territory in most maps. I can get behind that. Using a different shade for conquered territory would make maps really confusing for the most part in any case.

The Roman Empire is actually an interesting case. By 117 AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RomanEmpire_117.svg), the senatorial provinces could be regarded as core parts of the country, while the imperial provinces were very much run as colonies. Earlier in its history, only the Italian peninsular was core Roman "motherland", and during the Kingdom period, only the Latium region was. It was only in the later stages that most of the empire would actually be coloured in the base shade.

The Roman Empire also had a number of "client states" at various times, most notably the Regnum Bospori. My personal preference would be to have them in their native colour, with the border outlined in the imperial power's colour. That would distinguish them from the empire's colonies proper, which were considered integral parts of the empire rather than external governments that were more-or-less completely controlled. I'm not sure most colour schemes make this distinction though. "Great Game" era Afghanistan would be a good example of an early modern nation under this arrangement.

I expect that most ancient empires would have worked on similar principles; the core ethnic region would have been regarded as citizens (for whatever value "citizen" has in that empire), with other regions being effectively colonies, except where slash-and-burn ethnic cleansing had taken place. Every Roman Empire (and other ancient empires) map I've seen in a-h circles just draws them as a single colour though. This probably reflects insufficiently deep research.

Regarding the Soviet Union, although all the SSRs were officially equal, the Orwellian adage applies in spades -- one of them was definitely "more equal" than the others, and not merely by land area or by population. Modern Russia has official recognition as the successor state not merely to the Russian SSR, but to the USSR itself. It retained the blue water navy, the space programme, the nuclear stockpiles, and the UN security council veto. Even back in the USSR days, when Belarus and Ukraine had seats in the UN, it was the USSR that held a veto, not one of the SSRs that held a seat in the UN. Finally, all the USSR-wide decision-making bodies were head-quartered in Russia, not any of the other SSRs. While saying all SSRs were equal may well be true de jure, it ignores the de facto situation. Because of that, I think indicating the non-Russian SSRs in the darker shade does actually make a lot of sense. I also think focusing on ethnic origin of the Soviet leader misses a point; it's like arguing that the USA is now multicultural because Obama is black (it is multicultural, but regardless of the leader, not because or despite him). The CPSU took great pains to ensure doctrinal purity to the extent that any leader who reached such heights would have primary loyalty to the USSR rather than their original SSR.
 
Thanks Chris, for that long and thorough answer.

Dominions, as a contemporary member of the British Empire would have understood it, didn't really exist in any other polity I am aware of. The Roman Empire's tetrarchy period comes close, although there it was more intended to be four co-equal polities rather than the parent-child relationship envisioned in the British Empire.

I think everyone would agree with me when I say it seems a waste to use a very clear graphic (dark shade) for a single political relationship that didn't really exist elsewhere in time or space.

I wouldn't agree. The dominion colour has been quite useful in showing dominions themselves and colonies which gained responsible government/self government similar to that which normally preceded dominion status (take for example Southern Rhodesia and prior to 1907 New Zealand).

The UCS was meant to show OTL events and relationships on a national level (note, it was never originally intended to distinguish sub-national, non-colonial entities such as states versus territories within a federation), so the fact that a particular relationship was not found outside the British Empire is neither here nor there since that relationship did occur and was meant to be shown. The darker shade has now been used to show potential dominion type entities for colonial powers in ATL maps, but in most cases ATL maps that want to show something that radical are free to adopt their own colour scheme (as many people freely do, even basing it off the UCS, TRCS, TACOS, etc).



The Roman Empire also had a number of "client states" at various times, most notably the Regnum Bospori. My personal preference would be to have them in their native colour, with the border outlined in the imperial power's colour.

In that case you are free to do so but that would be the opposite of the convention in the UCS family of colour schemes where a territory is outlined with the colour of another country if that country claims the territory and is outlined with its own colour (but filled in with the colour of another country) if that other country has a lot of influence on that country. So Bulgaria from 1945 to 1989 for instance would be filled in red (the Soviet colour) but outlined in its own independent colour. This shows that it is outwardly independent (it still had a de jure independent foreign policy) but internally deeply influenced by the USSR. On the other hand Sikkim after Indian independence is given an Indian protectorate colour since it continued the same type of protectorate relationship with India that it previously had with the UK insofar as India conducted foreign affairs on its behalf (I think the same might be true today for Bhutan actually). And the Pacific island nations in free association with the United States (Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau) have all signed compacts of free association (treaties) which in many ways make them similar to the protectorates of the age of imperialism (in that they aren't 100% free to make treaties with any other country in the world and give the US certain military rights in their countries).

That would distinguish them from the empire's colonies proper, which were considered integral parts of the empire rather than external governments that were more-or-less completely controlled. I'm not sure most colour schemes make this distinction though.

They do though, which is why Cuba can be shown variously as a US protectorate (1903 - 1934) and as a US influenced country (1934-1959).

"Great Game" era Afghanistan would be a good example of an early modern nation under this arrangement.

Afghanistan is variously shown as British influenced or a British protectorate depending on the time period of the map.


Regarding the Soviet Union, although all the SSRs were officially equal, the Orwellian adage applies in spades -- one of them was definitely "more equal" than the others, and not merely by land area or by population. Modern Russia has official recognition as the successor state not merely to the Russian SSR, but to the USSR itself. It retained the blue water navy, the space programme, the nuclear stockpiles, and the UN security council veto. Even back in the USSR days, when Belarus and Ukraine had seats in the UN, it was the USSR that held a veto, not one of the SSRs that held a seat in the UN. Finally, all the USSR-wide decision-making bodies were head-quartered in Russia, not any of the other SSRs. While saying all SSRs were equal may well be true de jure, it ignores the de facto situation. Because of that, I think indicating the non-Russian SSRs in the darker shade does actually make a lot of sense.

For the purposes of the map there is no difference between the de jure and the de facto situation. UN Security Council vetoes aren't given a colour. And the USSR system was odd insofar as it was officially a federation but it's one party system meant it had a parallel system (and more important system) of basically centralized rule. Hence showing the non-Russian SSRs in a darker shade makes no sense because they were legally (according the USSR's constitutions) and de facto (based on highly centralized communist party control throughout the entire USSR) no different from the RSFSR. It wasn't as if the Turkmen SSR's state apparatus had any more autonomy than the RSFSR's state apparatus within the Soviet system. The ultimate authority was the CPSU which held the reigns of power for the USSR as a whole and controlled things in the SSR through SSR level parties.

What your discussing is akin to trying to colour the City of London (which is within Greater London itself) different from all the other areas in the UK because City is where the monarch's lord lieutenant is represented by the Mayor of London (unlike other areas where the roles of lord lieutenant is legally separate from that of the mayor) with the lord lieutenancy held in commission (unlike every other area).

That the modern Russian Federation is the successor to the USSR is all well and good, but if you will notice on no proper map using the UCS family of shadings is the modern Russian federation given the USSR's colour. In fact, the only Russian entity given the USSR's colour is the communist Russian state which existed for about 5 years before the USSR's formation in 1922.

I also think focusing on ethnic origin of the Soviet leader misses a point;

No it demonstrates that the USSR is not simply "Russia" ruling the other areas in the form of dominions or colonies as is commonly understood, but that it was much more complex than that.

it's like arguing that the USA is now multicultural because Obama is black (it is multicultural, but regardless of the leader, not because or despite him).

Nope. If all US presidents came from Virginia and the capital of the US was located in Virginia and all other states were in fact, legally, colonies of Virginia with no representation (or much circumscribed representation) in the national parliament in Virginia and Virginia then gave some states more local autonomy similar to the dominion status of the British Empire as " autonomous federal republics" or some such (still without representation in parliament in Virginia) within the Virginian political system then the situation would be akin to what you seem to be describing the USSR as, which of course is not what the USSR was like.

The CPSU took great pains to ensure doctrinal purity to the extent that any leader who reached such heights would have primary loyalty to the USSR rather than their original SSR.

Uhuh. So why then are the original SSRs other than the RSFSR to be given a different colour if the CPSU took such pains to ensure doctrinal purity and loyalty to the USSR (and not the RSFSR) for any leader no matter which republic they came from (including the RSFSR)?

In any case you are quite free to come up with whatever colour scheme you want. But you can't label your scheme as UCS or TRCS or TACOS and do what you're proposing since that would be appropriating the name of other persons' colour schemes (often arrived at by consensus). You can call it the AshCS or so quite easily though.
 
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