Domesticable elephant?

[Hobelhouse]

Everyone knows how cool elephants are. Unfortunately, as a weapon of war they are rather subpar. Elephants tend to be skittish, and easily frightened. They're also slow to mature, and need to be captured and tamed, unlike horses, which are truly domesticable. Because of these downsides the use of war elephants faded after the classical period. What could change this? Suppose that a breed of elephant emerges (a prehistoric POD) that is truly domesticable and is much less skittish in battle (say, on the level of a horse.) With these changes, the elephant would be much more viable. How would this affect, say, Middle Ages warfare?

The elephant is also used as a beast of burden in some Southeast Asian countries. If a truly domesticated elephant existed, would it supplant oxen and horse in these countries? Would these domesticated elephants spread to other areas?

 

[MNP]

The use of elephants in war did not fade after the classical period. It continued right on up to the use of gunpowder after which it did pass because the recoil was too much for the elephant to stand. Elephants passed in the west because they were simply to hard to obtain after the heyday of the Romans. Certainly the Sassanids used elephants right up until their demise and their use is documented in the battles around 1000 AD. In fact I am fairly sure Mahmud of Ghazan encountered them in his Indian invasions.

Anyhow it might be possible. Domesticated turkeys are unbelievably stupid while the wild ones are clever and sneaky for instance. I would think a domesticated elephant would be less intelligent and smaller to make the most of them.

 

[Saepe Fidelis]

The use of elephants in war did not fade after the classical period. It continued right on up to the use of gunpowder after which it did pass because the recoil was too much for the elephant to stand. Elephants passed in the west because they were simply to hard to obtain after the heyday of the Romans. Certainly the Sassanids used elephants right up until their demise and their use is documented in the battles around 1000 AD. In fact I am fairly sure Mahmud of Ghazan encountered them in his Indian invasions.

Anyhow it might be possible. Domesticated turkeys are unbelievably stupid while the wild ones are clever and sneaky for instance. I would think a domesticated elephant would be less intelligent and smaller to make the most of them.

Elephants were used in the First World War by the British Army's Indian regiments to carry ammunition and to move field guns, so they weren't absent from the battlefield at all. I think one or two may have been decorated, but I may be making it up.

 

[Riain]

Timur incorporated elephants into his forces when he came across them, and he did his thing in about 1400, on the verge of the gunpowder era. I think the idea that elephants are bad is western propaganda, their use everywhere they are readily available despite the fact that they have to be individually tamed at great difficulty speaks for their utility.

 

[Stephen]

It continued right on up to the use of gunpowder after which it did pass because the recoil was too much for the elephant to stand.

I thought it was mnore because elephants made great targets for canons killing them before they could start trampeling people.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Elephants were used to shunt trucks around railway yards in India.

 

[Tom Veil]

Anyhow it might be possible. Domesticated turkeys are unbelievably stupid while the wild ones are clever and sneaky for instance. I would think a domesticated elephant would be less intelligent and smaller to make the most of them.

It can work the other way, though. Most breeds of dogs, for example, are usually much more intelligent than wolves (think of the impressively subtle behaviors of a shepherd dog, for instance). That's because smart dogs were useful to humans, because dogs were beasts of burden. Smart poultry, on the other hand, would be a menace (the last thing you need when you're trying to butcher dinner is a feathered flank attack) so we breed 'em dumb.

With elephants, we would want them to at least have enough intelligence to minimize the chances of them getting panicky and violent. We'd also want to preserve the trunk dexterity, since without that they wouldn't be any better at agriculture than oxen. It could be difficult, though -- as if domesticating elephants won't be difficult enough -- because a farming village might not be able to afford to have more than a couple elephants, so they might not get enough socialization with their own kind, and might get bred rather indiscriminately.

 

[MNP]

With elephants, we would want them to at least have enough intelligence to minimize the chances of them getting panicky and violent.

Hmm, maybe I misunderstand but wouldn't making elephants dumber than they are be the way to go to reduce their chances of getting panicky and violent? I don't mean a lot dumber, but right now they are smart enough to want to rightly freak out over being in a battle. If they were stupider they'd get over it faster.

 

[Michael B]

They're also slow to mature.

A case against them. Gestation is nearly two years. Maturity can take thirteen years so utility is going to either be delayed a very long time or immature animals will have to be used. In contrast gestation for cattle is nine months and animals are mature in three years. No contest here.

The elephant is also used as a beast of burden in some Southeast Asian countries. If a truly domesticated elephant existed, would it supplant oxen and horse in these countries? Would these domesticated elephants spread to other areas?

Cattle make very good draught animals because of their neck bones. Horses are not so good until some one invents a horse collar. Elephants, where do you start?

Portage:
Mule 160 lb load for 20 lb of fodder per day, ratio 8:1
Camel 300lb load for 30lb fodder per day, ratio 10:1
Elephant: 1280 lb for 180lb fodder per day, ratio 7:1
Cart (2 oxen) 800lb for 32lb fodder per day, ration 25:1

Unless you are talking about country in which an elephant can move better than other forms of transport, there is no advantage over other forms.

 

[DG Valdron]

Elephants are an interesting case because historically, they've been repeatedly semi-domesticated. Not tamed in the current sense, but rather semi-domesticated in the sense of a wild animal brought into human society and significant economically to the culture.

Elephants were used both in economic activity and warfare in North Africa, Mesopotamia, Indochina and North China. Unfortunately, in all these regions but one, elephants vanished from the society.

Why? Because elephants lived too long, bred too slowly and took too long to mature. It was simpler and easier to keep going into the wild to harvest elephants. The trouble is that when the population of wild elephants petered out, through overhunting and habitat destruction and displacement, elephants vanished from these societies.

Fast breeders and fast maturers basically worked better as domestics.

 

[Hobelhouse]

Elephants are an interesting case because historically, they've been repeatedly semi-domesticated. Not tamed in the current sense, but rather semi-domesticated in the sense of a wild animal brought into human society and significant economically to the culture.

Elephants were used both in economic activity and warfare in North Africa, Mesopotamia, Indochina and North China. Unfortunately, in all these regions but one, elephants vanished from the society.

Why? Because elephants lived too long, bred too slowly and took too long to mature. It was simpler and easier to keep going into the wild to harvest elephants. The trouble is that when the population of wild elephants petered out, through overhunting and habitat destruction and displacement, elephants vanished from these societies.

Fast breeders and fast maturers basically worked better as domestics.

The point of this thread is, what if they were fast maturing and thus easily domesticable? What would the effects on society be?

Michael B - those are interesting figures, but in many places the elephant might win out because of the trunk, for example in construction. Also, what about an elephant pulling a cart?

 

[mrmandias]

They're also slow to mature, and need to be captured and tamed, unlike horses, which are truly domesticable.

These are not unrelated. Elephants were never economically worth domesticating because they are so slow to mature. You probably need to change the latter to get the former. Which probably means that your elephants are going to be smaller and dumber, maybe originally herd animals for use in places that are forested or jungled. Once you get that POD in place, then its possible that a larger, smarter variety of elephant is bred back up for work and war purposes.

 

[DG Valdron]

Fast maturing elephants would almost have to be smaller. Say about half the size of current ones, maybe two tons.

Assuming that you had fast breeding/fast maturing elephants, domestication is a cinch.

 

[wolf_brother]

AFAIK, the North African Elephant (loxodonta africana pharaoensis) were domesticated and used commercially and militaristically by ancient Egypt, Ethiopia, Nubia and Carthage, as well as other various powers of the Atlas Mts. and Nile R. regions - they went extinct roughly about the time Rome conquered both those regions. This species was fairly small for an elephant, only 2.3m at the shoulder (compared - African Bush Elephant; 3.5m, Asian Elephant; 2.9m. Only the African Forest Elephant is of comparable size, normally at 2.5m). It is also recorded and mentioned several times that the North African was quite docile and tame (again, compare - African Bush Elephants are totally untamableable, and Asian and African Forest Elephants require enormous investments in both time and energy to become productive).

A simple POD would be for the Romans, instead of hunting and using these animals in the coliseum games, to introduce them into their military. This would spread the species throughout most of the Roman world, allowing for the possibility of its continued use in later times in the Western world.

 

[cclittle]

An Offer to President Lincoln

As I recall an Asian country found out about the Cival War and offered President Lincoln a pair of eliphants. Suppose he excepted. They would be founders of the US Army Eliphant Corps.

 

[Helios Ra]

As I recall an Asian country found out about the Cival War and offered President Lincoln a pair of eliphants. Suppose he excepted. They would be founders of the US Army Eliphant Corps.

As I recall Jefferson Davis had a pet project of a Camel Corps back in the '40s or '50s. It ended with the camels being released in Arizona because they weren't useful. I don't think elephants would go over any better.

 

[Riain]

As I recall an Asian country found out about the Cival War and offered President Lincoln a pair of eliphants. Suppose he excepted. They would be founders of the US Army Eliphant Corps.

Wasn't that Yule Brenner in the "King and I?"

 

[Grand_Panjandrum]

The issue of musth needs to be considered. Having bull elephants go on mad rampage every time they are in season can't be good. It must either be bred out or they must be gelded.

 

[Gladi]

AFAIK, the North African Elephant (loxodonta africana pharaoensis) were domesticated

Bright day
I have heard that as well. I guess that would answer Hobelhouse quest for domesticable elephants.

Really the main crux of issue seems to me to be the economy. You cannot put a third of an elephant in front of a plow, but you can put several oxen in front of a wagon.

Cows historically have been a large invetment of money. Anything larger will increase the costs exponantially.

 

[Michael B]

A simple POD would be for the Romans, instead of hunting and using these animals in the coliseum games, to introduce them into their military. This would spread the species throughout most of the Roman world, allowing for the possibility of its continued use in later times in the Western world.

Why would the Romans want to adopt the elephant for war when they not only defeated all the pachy using armies but had tactics to handle a charge by them? They were good at adopted useful technology which elephants are not. As a weapon of war they are nearly as overrated as the scythed chariot.