Just as the title and the poll say, which would be easier to hold, Portuguese Galicia/Andalusia or Portuguese Morocco? What would be the effects?
Discussion: What would be easier to hold for Portugal?
- Thread starter TanTheManJam
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- al-andalus galicia morocco portugal
Morroco is impossible pre 19th century imo, while both Galicia and Al-Andalus are less impossible a POD that Portugal is part of Galicia and is able to incorporate the Castilian and Leonese crowns, can mobilize a large enough army to cross the Iberian Central System and take offensive actions from the north while the Portuguese and Galicians cross the Guadiana.
If Portugal became dominant in a kingdom of Leon that takes extremadura and western andalucia then those territories would in time become lusophone and just like otl Portugal a centralized state .
If the portuguese move to take morocco , then the coastal areas would in time be also lusophone and the degree of lusification inland depends on the violence of the conquest .
Atl Portuguese land nobility would see Morocco as rightfully theirs .
If its a simple continuation of the reconquista its " convert or flee " and the death toll due to the war , famines and desease would help to depopulate Morocco and make it suitable for large scale migration from western iberia to the best farmland .
The arabized population would disappear fairly quickly and the berbers living in the mountains would have to choose beetwen conversion , migration or possibly genocide , sponsored by the papacy .
Just imagine the extremadurans Francisco Pizarro and Hernan Cortes on the loose in Morocco , before departing to the new world searching for ( more ) fame and fortune .
If the portuguese move to take morocco , then the coastal areas would in time be also lusophone and the degree of lusification inland depends on the violence of the conquest .
Atl Portuguese land nobility would see Morocco as rightfully theirs .
If its a simple continuation of the reconquista its " convert or flee " and the death toll due to the war , famines and desease would help to depopulate Morocco and make it suitable for large scale migration from western iberia to the best farmland .
The arabized population would disappear fairly quickly and the berbers living in the mountains would have to choose beetwen conversion , migration or possibly genocide , sponsored by the papacy .
Just imagine the extremadurans Francisco Pizarro and Hernan Cortes on the loose in Morocco , before departing to the new world searching for ( more ) fame and fortune .
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Lusitania
Donor
The idea that it be hard for Portuguese to hold actually becomes opposite. Take for example the following scenario.
D. Henriques - captures all of Galicia and western leon including cidade Rodrigo.
Leon civil war - Portugal wins and incorporates all of Leon into Portugal. (Maybe even winning Asturia also)
reconquista- now a stronger and bigger Portugal moves south of Tejo River into not only Alentejo, Algarve but also Andalusia.
so before we talk about North Africa let’s consider a Iberian peninsula where Portugal controls 40% of the territory and rest are controlled by Castile (who is this scenario is the smaller country) and Aragon. Portugal could even guarantee Navarra independence to keep Castile ambitions in check.
now in the 14th century Portuguese make inroads to North Africa. During the last attempt by Moroccans to retake Iberian peninsula the Portuguese field largest army and like iotl the Moroccan are defeated but in this scenario the sultan is killed and entire treasury and nobles and their sons are captured. Portugal then releases the nobles for large amount of $ and Tangier/Ceuta enclave. Giving Portuguese full control of entrance to Med on both sides.
during remainder of 14th and 15th century several battles with a dis unified Moroccans leaves it in control of entire coast. With Moroccan kingdoms holding the center. Fighting themselves as much as Portuguese.
Even if Portugal never expands past 50-100 km coastal area they would be able to change the Portuguese areas from Moroccan kingdoms. Language and religion would change.
the whole Iberian - North Africa Portugal lands over time become this scenario lusophone nation.
Note: this is a different lusophone than iotl for it would incorporate Galicians, Leonese, not only Algarve but Andalusia and North Africa. Plus the island groups of canaries, Madeira and Açores (could even include Cape Verde ).
in time this Portugal be as strong and Spain was and while there be regional differences they still be Portuguese.
D. Henriques - captures all of Galicia and western leon including cidade Rodrigo.
Leon civil war - Portugal wins and incorporates all of Leon into Portugal. (Maybe even winning Asturia also)
reconquista- now a stronger and bigger Portugal moves south of Tejo River into not only Alentejo, Algarve but also Andalusia.
so before we talk about North Africa let’s consider a Iberian peninsula where Portugal controls 40% of the territory and rest are controlled by Castile (who is this scenario is the smaller country) and Aragon. Portugal could even guarantee Navarra independence to keep Castile ambitions in check.
now in the 14th century Portuguese make inroads to North Africa. During the last attempt by Moroccans to retake Iberian peninsula the Portuguese field largest army and like iotl the Moroccan are defeated but in this scenario the sultan is killed and entire treasury and nobles and their sons are captured. Portugal then releases the nobles for large amount of $ and Tangier/Ceuta enclave. Giving Portuguese full control of entrance to Med on both sides.
during remainder of 14th and 15th century several battles with a dis unified Moroccans leaves it in control of entire coast. With Moroccan kingdoms holding the center. Fighting themselves as much as Portuguese.
Even if Portugal never expands past 50-100 km coastal area they would be able to change the Portuguese areas from Moroccan kingdoms. Language and religion would change.
the whole Iberian - North Africa Portugal lands over time become this scenario lusophone nation.
Note: this is a different lusophone than iotl for it would incorporate Galicians, Leonese, not only Algarve but Andalusia and North Africa. Plus the island groups of canaries, Madeira and Açores (could even include Cape Verde ).
in time this Portugal be as strong and Spain was and while there be regional differences they still be Portuguese.
If even with OTL Portugal you can already wank it and have it become more powerful, imagine a bigger Portugal...
Lusitania
Donor
Yes they could vassalage interior 2-3 vassals. You could increase your influence, Catholicism and even language over several centuries. But they be subjects and not part of Portugal. A 50-100 km coastal control would still huge part of the country.