Discussion: American citizens not paying taxes.

[Armot]

How to get ride of "no taxation without representation" and have American citizens paying no taxes while being the only people allowed to vote?

I think the best way is imperialism. So... Was America powerful enough to be a talasocracy and a telurocracy at the same time? Because I think that the only way to get it is by puppetizing resources-rich countries in the Americas and exploiting colonies in Africa.

I guess avoiding 1812 war is quite important, for example.

 

[Alt History Buff]

How to get ride of "no taxation without representation" and have American citizens paying no taxes while being the only people allowed to vote?

I think the best way is imperialism. So... Was America powerful enough to be a talasocracy and a telurocracy at the same time? Because I think that the only way to get it is by puppetizing resources-rich countries in the Americas and exploiting colonies in Africa.

I guess avoiding 1812 war is quite important, for example.

I'm assuming that you describe a modern america that collects enough taxes from other nations so as not to need to tax themselves (and presumably sustain their lifestyle and governmental expenses).

No, I don't see any opportunity.

America was deeply politically divided until after the American civil war and had no capacity to enforce their will over a significant quantity of foreigners in the 19th century. The military was small and weak for most of the 19th century.

The closest example is Puerto Rico, which actually pays NO national taxes.

Even if 19th century american wanted to go down this path, it wouldn't work.

Besides there are no nations on earth wealthy enough in natural resources to sustain the US government. Even if America owned the middle east free and clear, this wouldn't be enough.

 

[wcv215]

America was deeply politically divided until after the American civil war and had no capacity to enforce their will over a significant quantity of foreigners in the 19th century. The military was small and weak for most of the 19th century.

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at things. The US military wasn't too weak to impose its will on its neighbors because, the US didn't have any particular interest in doing so, not because the country was incapable (well barring the masters of the northern neighbor for most of the century of course.) When the US actually went up against a foreign nation in the 19th century (Mexico) the war basically ended with the US dictating whatever terms it felt like. A militaristic US wouldn't have the small and weak military you refer to IMO. By the late 19th century a US which chose to dominate say Central America would be perfectly capable of doing so.

Now that's not to say we would get to a point where American citizens pay no taxes, which I cannot see happening. Not least because in such a scenario those citizens would be some of the only people who actually have money to tax.

 

[jkay]

But. basic reality is death and taxes, sorry. There's no avoiding either.

And reality is about regulation, reasonably high taxes, and lots of government spending, I'm afraid

 

[jahenders]

You're quite right. Rome collected lots of taxes, tariffs, and tribute from other countries, peoples, or conquered areas, but this did little (if anything) to reduce the tax burden on Roman citizens. The main things that changed the Roman tax burden were the whims of various emperors in trying to pander to different elements of society and the size of the bribes that the emperors had to pay to the Praetorian Guard to keep from getting assassinated right away.

But. basic reality is death and taxes, sorry. There's no avoiding either.

And reality is about regulation, reasonably high taxes, and lots of government spending, I'm afraid

 

[JCVocke]

The best way to do it is to keep the US isolated. Income Taxes generally didn't happen in US history, the first income tax wasn't levied until the civil war and the first peace time income tax wasn't levied until the 1890s and finally solidified with the 16th amendment in 1913.

Before that most US Federal Income was obtained from Tariffs and Sales Tax. If the US avoids the Civil War in particular that will have denied them a legal precedent for a Federal Income Tax and, since this will also avoid the centralizing of the Federal Government and the reduction of State Power, likely prevent them from ever getting a Federal Income Tax going. If the US then stays out of WWI, ignoring possible butterflies of course, there you go.

Basically if there's nothing the Fed 'needs' to spend money on, IE Wars, they won't have the need to collect taxes and the states will jealously guard that authority.

 

[Armot]

I see... So, after WW2 would be the time, given that numbers were all time high for US, in absolute therms and relative to the rest of the world.

It really surprises me that not even Middle East resources are enough, America would have a global quasi-monopoly of oil, plus most of refineries.

 

[TinyTartar]

If only we had known about Oil in the 1840s, we would have kept the northern half of Borneo instead of selling it to the British, and had a substantial filibuster effort in Venezuela.

We'd own basically all the world's oil and likely nobody would ever need to pay taxes.

 

[jahenders]

If it were possible to keep the US isolated that could be possible. However, with that isolation would come loss of trade opportunities.

Also, if the states had been able to retain their power and limit federal power and federal government growth, then most of us would likely be paying considerably higher STATE taxes.

The best way to do it is to keep the US isolated. Income Taxes generally didn't happen in US history, the first income tax wasn't levied until the civil war and the first peace time income tax wasn't levied until the 1890s and finally solidified with the 16th amendment in 1913.

Before that most US Federal Income was obtained from Tariffs and Sales Tax. If the US avoids the Civil War in particular that will have denied them a legal precedent for a Federal Income Tax and, since this will also avoid the centralizing of the Federal Government and the reduction of State Power, likely prevent them from ever getting a Federal Income Tax going. If the US then stays out of WWI, ignoring possible butterflies of course, there you go.

Basically if there's nothing the Fed 'needs' to spend money on, IE Wars, they won't have the need to collect taxes and the states will jealously guard that authority.

 

[JCVocke]

Not Necessarily. Political and Diplomatic Isolation don't have to include Economic Isolation. After all, that's basically how the pre-Civil War US was. It had no entangling alliances and very little military action with other powers, yet it still traded a great deal. And even if trade does slow, the US is one of the few world powers that could effectively become a complete Autarky. If trade to the outside world is prevented, you'll see the US focus inwards and become its own little economic world, with trade between states growing to fill the gap.

And while State Taxes may be higher, they aren't guaranteed to be. Again without intervening in foreign affairs the Military Budgets will be stripped to the bare, with the US largely relying on the Two Great Walls of the Atlantic and the Pacific to protect it. States themselves will not have a Military Budget except for a small token State's Guard, which won't consume much.

From there, some States may raise taxes to pay for social projects, but others won't. There would likely be an extreme amount of variance in what States do, with the only common point being the maintenance of Road Networks, things like Police and Fire protection being devolved to City Governments.

 

[RousseauX]

How to get ride of "no taxation without representation" and have American citizens paying no taxes while being the only people allowed to vote?

I think the best way is imperialism. So... Was America powerful enough to be a talasocracy and a telurocracy at the same time? Because I think that the only way to get it is by puppetizing resources-rich countries in the Americas and exploiting colonies in Africa.

I guess avoiding 1812 war is quite important, for example.

It doesn't work because resource rich doesn't mean rich, Africa is plentiful in resources but dirt poor despite decades of attempted development. Any area you can colonize will not give enough tax revenues to fund the federal government. Trying to maintain a federal government without taxing the domestic tax base is unrealistic.

People often don't understand that history of the last 50-60 years have proven over and over again natural resources matter far less than institutions in determining the amount of wealth a country has.

 

[RousseauX]

The best way to do it is to keep the US isolated. Income Taxes generally didn't happen in US history, the first income tax wasn't levied until the civil war and the first peace time income tax wasn't levied until the 1890s and finally solidified with the 16th amendment in 1913.

Before that most US Federal Income was obtained from Tariffs and Sales Tax. If the US avoids the Civil War in particular that will have denied them a legal precedent for a Federal Income Tax and, since this will also avoid the centralizing of the Federal Government and the reduction of State Power, likely prevent them from ever getting a Federal Income Tax going. If the US then stays out of WWI, ignoring possible butterflies of course, there you go.

Basically if there's nothing the Fed 'needs' to spend money on, IE Wars, they won't have the need to collect taxes and the states will jealously guard that authority.

That's income tax there's nothing preventing people from just raising sales tax until it's taxing the equivalent amount to what an income tax would be getting.