different christianity

[whalenapp81]

here is something i was thinking about, what would happen if jesus still had gotten crucified, but instead of just him dying, all of the 13 (including mary magdeline) apostles were all killed, no apostles, no christianity, no errosion of roman values, maybe a longer lived roman empire

 

[pisces74]

So what you're really saying here is no Christianity, Ok here are your runners up.

Judiism, it was still around, and since heritage is tracked through the woman probably won't get stamped out, Instead of a christian europe, you have a jewish europe.

Islam, some people assert that Islam wouldn't happen without christianity, I don't feel as such, it would be set up to be a reformed judiaism or zorasterism though.

Zoasterism, the heavy weight out of Persia *could* have become evangelical, and drifted west.

perhaps in the renaissanse when trade witht he far east is established, Buddism, confucianism, Hinduism, and Taoism may have been brought west, after all the renaissice is when people were looking for answers, they may have found some in the far east.

 

[Nicole]

Though Jesus' preaching had already occured, so it's possible the ressurected Jesus could appear to a group of followers who weren't the Apostles, but had followed Jesus in his preachings anyway. After all, God wouldn't let a Roman slaughter ruin his plans...

But let's assume Christianity fails anyway. Jesus might have some sort of role in Judaism- not as the Son of God or Messiah, but as a notable preacher who was slaughtered with his followers by the Romans. Judaism probably stays around, though I don't know if it would reach the scale that Christianity did.

There was a TL Mithraism becoming a dominant religion awhile back, if I recall. That could be a possibility.

 

[Max Sinister]

The Jews didn't want to convert other people but stay the Chosen Ones instead. Of course, that could change theoretically... but don't ask me how.

And it's true, not all of the evangelists were apostles. Unless you decide that they're killed too.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

Mithraism is one good possiblity. Manicheanism is another (though it probably wouldn't be our Manicheanism since that's actually a sect of Xtianity.

I have read some few essays that go in detail about why some sort of great religion was bound to be borne out of this time, but I forget what the factors were that made this so, beyond the fact that Rome really had nothing but Stoicism and the Greek Religions were overintellectualized and sterile. Can anyone remember the other factors, or better yet point me to one of these essays I'm referring to here?

Manicheanism would have been even worse than Xtianity as far as erosion of Roman, or even human, values. Mithraism could be quite interesting. A show I saw recently says that our "picture" of Jesus is actually Alexander as the Mithraic hero.

 

[Tom_B]

There are 2 big problems with Mithraism as being a dominant religion:

1] It was male only
2] It was an esoteric religion. Only the specially initiated could learn its doctrines and rituals. Something like Freemasonry.

Some think where Rome was going was a sort of MetaRelgion. There would be a central god, Serapis and and ancillary Mother Goddess, Isis, but the big tent would have room for annexes where some other Mystery Relgions both esoteric and exoteric would have a place.

There would be an ancillary theology to this, an offshoot of Neoplatonism which would condescendingly see the Serapis Cultus as a crude intermediate stage towards spiritual unity with the Ultimate One.

Tom

 

[MerryPrankster]

Are there any "names" in the pre-Pentecost church besides the Twelve Apostles?

I know there were two guys on the road to Emmaus to whom Jesus appeared...in TTL they'll probably play a larger role.

 

[Keenir]

The Jews didn't want to convert other people but stay the Chosen Ones instead. Of course, that could change theoretically... but don't ask me how.

maybe like the Khazars -- adoption of the faith.

There are 2 big problems with Mithraism as being a dominant religion:

1] It was male only
2] It was an esoteric religion. Only the specially initiated could learn its doctrines and rituals. Something like Freemasonry.

...and early Christianity, which itself was a "mystery cult".
(and which also had sects which believed women were a creation of the devil - remember the Gnostics?)

 

[Tom_B]

...and early Christianity, which itself was a "mystery cult".
(and which also had sects which believed women were a creation of the devil - remember the Gnostics?)

You are missing the point. Christianity even back then was mostly exoteric while Mithraism was esoteric. Christian doctrine was widely proclaimed to all who would listen and put to writing. MIthraism was a big secret so to this day scholars argue about what they believed.

Gnosticism came in many different varieties. SOme of them allowed women to become priests.

Tom

 

[Michael B]

Are there any "names" in the pre-Pentecost church besides the Twelve Apostles?

I know there were two guys on the road to Emmaus to whom Jesus appeared...in TTL they'll probably play a larger role.

Correct. There were other disciples. If the Apostles were all dead, these men could provide the leadership the early church would need. However, because they were not from the inner circle, you could have more than one church appear. After all the credentials of one of these "outer" disciples is as good as the next.

 

[sunsurf]

Possibilities...

Are there any "names" in the pre-Pentecost church besides the Twelve Apostles?

I know there were two guys on the road to Emmaus to whom Jesus appeared...in TTL they'll probably play a larger role.

Also, Nicodemus, Lazarus(!), Virgin Mary, Mary Magdelene, Martha

A Roman centurion, Veronica, Zacchaeus, the Wandering Jew, the unnamed girl who was raised from the dead. Barabbas(!).

There's a legend Pontius Pilate converted.

The Roman at the Crucifixion who said "Truely this man must be the son of God!"

Veronica isn't named in the Bible, but that could have been her name.
As for her historicity...eh, well, I put her in anyway.

 

[MarkA]

Christianity was overwhealmingly the religion of slaves. A few freeborn citizens are attested and even fewer knights and only a handful of upper class converts. The Army was almost immune from conversions and the countryside was pagan for centuries.

 

[Michael B]

Possibilities...



Also, Nicodemus, Lazarus(!), Virgin Mary, Mary Magdelene, Martha

A Roman centurion, Veronica, Zacchaeus, the Wandering Jew, the unnamed girl who was raised from the dead. Barabbas(!).

There's a legend Pontius Pilate converted.

The Roman at the Crucifixion who said "Truely this man must be the son of God!"

Veronica isn't named in the Bible, but that could have been her name.
As for her historicity...eh, well, I put her in anyway.

In the original posting Mary Magdelene was listed as dead. As she is probably Mary of Bethany, Lazarus and Martha would probably be rounded up as well.

That would leave Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea as possible leaders at least because they are members of the Sanhedrin.

The Roman centurion and the Roman at the cross are not going to make many converts amongst the Jews as they are representatives of the hated romans. However they could pre-empt St Paul.

I would forget Pilate as a possibility; he would have even less credibility than St Paul and the latter had his word cut out at the start of his ministery.

 

[whalenapp81]

sorry, i forgot about the other "disciples" and whatnot, lets not forget though, that early,early christianity had a great marketing campain for its religion, and it had some great marketers, who sold the religion after their prohet was killed, i think that without the main marketers christianity would not have gotten off of the ground

p.s. sorry for the spelling

 

[Michael B]

It is worth noting that a lot of the Gentiles who became Christians were "God Fearers", non-Jews who had accepted their belief in God, but had not completely converted with all the social and cultural baggage that went along with it.