Different Alliances in WW1

What if instead of OTL, you got a Germany-Russia-Italy-Serbia alliance in one side, and a France+ Austria-Hungary + Bulgaria + Ottomans on the other side? How would such a war likely go? Britain could still join if someone violates Belgium's neutrality, too. As for the United States, I'm not too sure.
 
For such alliance you would need much earlier POD.

But such alliance would be vicotry of Germany and its allies. But if Britain sides with France then it would become quiet hard question. USA might remain neutral but it would depend from many things like its own politics and what sides of the war are doing.
 

Aphrodite

Banned
Russia destroyed the Austrian armies in six weeks, Germany reached the Marne in four even with Britain allied to France.

With the Russians sending the two armies they sent to Prussia against Austria, the Germans sending 8th Army West and the Italians sending an Army and a half against France, how does this war last to the end of September 1914?
 
Add Britain as an actual ally to the Austro-Hungarian-French alliance. Like that, even if Italy is allied to Germany and Russia, they would probably hesitate to join the war, since they would not only have to deploy against both Austria-Hungary and France, but they would also have to face the British, French and Austro-Hungarian navies all at once.

The Austro-Hungarian Army, but also the economy would probably be in a much better shape, while Russia would be worse off. All those French investment which historically helped to develop Russia would had enriched Austria-Hungary ITTL instead. Add in the mortal threat of having both Germany and Russia as enemies, and the military budget of the Dual Monarchy would had been incomparable higher from much earlier on.

Like this, if Austria-Hungary stays on the defensive early on during the war, it could repel the initial Russo-German onslaught, thanks to the favourable terrain conditions. Galicia might need to be abandoned though.

Once the allied aid starts to pour in, the frontlines would harden indefinitely.
 

thaddeus

Donor
not a student of this period, but could any accommodation between Austria-Hungary and Russia be "forced" by Germany and Russia? could there even be a forced split? with the German-speaking areas placed in a protectorate (?) and an independent Hungary?

in theory, a Germany (including Austria)-Hungary-Russia alliance, maybe a tag-a-long Bulgaria might be the strongest?
 
not a student of this period, but could any accommodation between Austria-Hungary and Russia be "forced" by Germany and Russia?
You mean strong-arming Austria-Hungary to accept Russian dominance on the Balkans? It's possible, if Austria-Hungary fails to break out its isolation, but unlikely since the French (because of Germany) and British (because of Russia) would be eager to back up the Dual Monarchy.

could there even be a forced split? with the German-speaking areas placed in a protectorate (?) and an independent Hungary?
Not without a war, and we're back at square one.

in theory, a Germany (including Austria)-Hungary-Russia alliance, maybe a tag-a-long Bulgaria might be the strongest?
In theory, yes. The League of Three Emperors was essentially that IOTL. The troubles began when the league fell apart.
 
Like this, if Austria-Hungary stays on the defensive early on during the war, it could repel the initial Russo-German onslaught, thanks to the favourable terrain conditions. Galicia might need to be abandoned though.

There is also Italy and Serbia in the OP against her, so it's basically a 4 front scenario with the nation basically uncapable of trade with anyone and the K.u.K. will lack the OTL German help
 
There is also Italy and Serbia in the OP against her, so it's basically a 4 front scenario with the nation basically uncapable of trade with anyone and the K.u.K. will lack the OTL German help
Ofcourse, strictly going by the OP, A-H is screwed, albeit I would say that trade with France and by extension Britain would be still possible. Italy alone cannot really challenge the Austro-French dominance of the Mediterranean Sea. You might say, that France couldn't really commit to the region, since they would also have to deal with the Germans in the North, but I don't think that would be the case. If the Germans don't want to stir up the hornets' nest, they would better stay clear from anywhere near the Channel.
 
Ofcourse, strictly going by the OP, A-H is screwed, albeit I would say that trade with France and by extension Britain would be still possible. Italy alone cannot really challenge the Austro-French dominance of the Mediterranean Sea. You might say, that France couldn't really commit to the region, since they would also have to deal with the Germans in the North, but I don't think that would be the case. If the Germans don't want to stir up the hornets' nest, they would better stay clear from anywhere near the Channel.

Austria having the dominance of the Adriatic is a little strech, it will probably go as OTL the navy doing some limited raid and passing the bulk of the conflict behind the defense of their bases...and Italy need only to block Otranto to stop any commerce
 
Austria having the dominance of the Adriatic is a little strech, it will probably go as OTL the navy doing some limited raid and passing the bulk of the conflict behind the defense of their bases...and Italy need only to block Otranto to stop any commerce
I would agree, if it would be Austria alone, but you have to take into account the French Mediterranean Fleet as well.
 
I recently read that Italy nearly joined the Axis. The Italian king and the Army were pro axis and wanted to fight but the Navy and Parliament were pro neutral.

The Italian army chief went as far as telegraphing Berlin saying the Army was ready to mobilize.

Lots of butterflies fluttering in Rome and France could be hit with two invasions.
 
Like this, if Austria-Hungary stays on the defensive early on during the war, it could repel the initial Russo-German onslaught, thanks to the favourable terrain conditions. Galicia might need to be abandoned though.
I'm not at all convinced about these "favourable terrain conditions". Not just Galicia, Vorarlberg is gone in five minutes too if Germany thinks it's worth the bother of sending a battalion or two. Good luck holding Salzburg. And more importantly, what significant terrain obstacles are there in the way of a push down the Danube from Bavaria towards Linz, and eventually Vienna?

Once the allied aid starts to pour in, the frontlines would harden indefinitely.
Is this allied aid "pouring" through the Adriatic ports - do they have any kind of useful capacity or transport links at this time? How long does it take to suppress the Italian navy to the point where it's capable of no more than nuisance raiding?

Or is it sailing all the way from Marseilles through the Dardanelles and then up the Danube? In which case you have to have already taken Belgrade AND successfully invaded neutral Rumania, or at least convinced them that you are more scary than the imminent threat of Russian invasion. It doesn't do you much good to have big strong allies if you don't have common borders with them and are essentially landlocked.
 
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Vorarlberg is gone in five minutes too if Germany thinks it's worth the bother of sending a battalion or two.
Bregenz and Donbirn might fall, but the rest of Voralberg would be really difficult to capture because of all those mountains.
Good luck holding Salzburg
If defensive positions are established at the city, I'm pretty sure it could be held, since the Alps would make it near impossible to threaten it from the sides. Meanwhile, urban warfare heavily favours the defender. In the setting of WW1, when the defender already enjoys a stupid amount of advantage, I think it's not unthinkable that the city would hold.
And more importantly, what significant terrain obstacles are there in the way of a push down the Danube from Bavaria towards Linz, and eventually Vienna?
Well for one, the left bank of the Danube in Upper Austria is rather hilly, which could offer favourable defensive positions. On the other hand, the plain area between the right bank of the Danube and the Alps is quite narrow, any advancement would need to deal with harassment from the mountains and the other side of the Danube, so even that area wouldn't be that suitable for a breakthrough.
Is this allied aid "pouring" through the Adriatic ports - do they have any kind of useful capacity or transport links at this time?
Ofcourse they have. Both Triest and Fiume are extremely well connected into the railway network of the Dual Monarchy and should have adequate capacity to handle the incoming allied troops and materials.
How long does it take to suppress the Italian navy to the point where it's capable of no more than nuisance raiding?
Well, my very first comment was written under the asumption that Italy would stay out of the war. If they do join the war though, even then, I don't think the Italian Navy would actually dare to leave port in face of such an one-sided situation. If Britain is also among the participants of the war, then there would be the problem of coal too for the Italians.
Or is it sailing all the way from Marseilles through the Dardanelles and then up the Danube?
No, it doesn't.
 
Pfff, all these alliances are so generic, I propose the glorious Franco-German-Russian-Romanian pact VS the British-AustroHungarian-Serbian-Turkish alliance
 
Interesting points, thanks for the considered response.
Bregenz and Donbirn might fall,
I.e. most of the population and all of whatever industry there might have been at the time
but the rest of Voralberg would be really difficult to capture because of all those mountains.
So what? A few thousand farmers & cows.

North Tyrol, with all of its food production and whatever industry it had at the time, is written off too. No need to invade; its high capacity transport links run through Bavaria. The Brenner railway was mainly intended to guard against strategic threats in the other direction; now you're going to have to try to supply both North and South Tryol through Pustertal. No idea what the state of the roads there was at this time in winter.

If defensive positions are established at the city [Salzburg], I'm pretty sure it could be held, since the Alps would make it near impossible to threaten it from the sides. Meanwhile, urban warfare heavily favours the defender. In the setting of WW1, when the defender already enjoys a stupid amount of advantage, I think it's not unthinkable that the city would hold.
Interesting point and now you mention it, I can't actually think of any major urban battles in OTL WW1. A Leningrad at this point might be just as much of a shock as the Western Front was. In any case, all the industry is within artillery range of the enemy & therefore written off.

Well for one, the left bank of the Danube in Upper Austria is rather hilly, which could offer favourable defensive positions. On the other hand, the plain area between the right bank of the Danube and the Alps is quite narrow, any advancement would need to deal with harassment from the mountains and the other side of the Danube, so even that area wouldn't be that suitable for a breakthrough.
True. The attacker would be building a heck of a salient with impregnable hills on both sides. Otoh nobody in September 1914 knew it was going to come down to static lines & attrition (and in the east it never did to quite the same extent); I can't see a thrust toward Linz not being attempted.

This is an interesting little thought experiment, but what is basically exposes is just how absurd & impossible the POD alliances are. The Austro-Hungarian general staff and political leadership would have to be even more incompetent than OTL to get themselves into this situation, where basically the best they can hope for in the War of Complete Surroundedness they've now signed up for is to hang on by the skin of their teeth, after writing off everything on the wrong side of the mountains.
 
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I.e. most of the population and all of whatever industry there might have been at the time
Yes, that's, true, but maintaining the rest of Voralberg is still useful, since it keeps the connection with Switzerland wider (through Liechtenstein)

North Tyrol, with all of its food production and whatever industry it had at the time, is written off too. No need to invade; its high capacity transport links run through Bavaria. The Brenner railway was mainly intended to guard against strategic threats in the other direction; now you're going to have to try to supply both North and South Tryol through Pustertal. No idea what the state of the roads there was at this time in winter.
That's true for OTL, however an Austria-Hungary that managed to develop a hostile relationship with Germany might try to develop alternative internal routes or expand the capacity of existing ones before the war, since such weakness would be plain to the eye even without any hinsight.
In any case, all the industry is within artillery range of the enemy & therefore written off.
I don't remember Salzburg being a notable industrial hub, so perhaps that's not too huge of a loss.
Otoh nobody in September 1914 knew it was going to come down to static lines & attrition (and in the east it never did to quite the same extent); I can't see a a thrust toward Linz not being attempted.
Ofcourse, but such thrust would benefit Austria-Hungary, if it would somehow allow them to give the Germans a bloody nose early on.

This is an interesting little thought experiment, but what is basically exposes is just how absurd & impossible the POD alliances are. The Austro-Hungarian general staff and political leadership would have to be even more incompetent than OTL to get themselves into this situation, where basically the best they can hope for in the War of Complete Surroundedness they've now signed up for is to hang on by the skin of their teeth, after writing off everything on the wrong side of the mountains.
Ofcourse, I agree. This is an absurd and impossible situation. Austria-Hungary certainly shouldn't allow itself to go down a path like this.

Well, if the anti-Austrian Russo-German alliance must still form, then atleast British involvement and Italian-Serbian non-involvement must need to be secured. Britain can scare off Italy, while Austria-Hungary could remain non-confrontational on the Balkans to keep Serbia out. If the Ottoman Empire is part of the conflict from day one, then that's even better.
 
North Tyrol, with all of its food production and whatever industry it had at the time, is written off too. No need to invade; its high capacity transport links run through Bavaria. The Brenner railway was mainly intended to guard against strategic threats in the other direction; now you're going to have to try to supply both North and South Tryol through Pustertal. No idea what the state of the roads there was at this time in winter.

That's true for OTL, however an Austria-Hungary that managed to develop a hostile relationship with Germany might try to develop alternative internal routes or expand the capacity of existing ones before the war, since such weakness would be plain to the eye even without any hindsight.
True, and given a couple of years lead time a railway through Pustertal and/or road improvements on the Grießen and Thurn passes would be obvious steps to take. Still gonna be hard put to match the capacity of the main line up the Inn through Rosenheim & Kufstein though.

Edit: aaand ... now I find there is in fact a Pustertal railway, built in 1871. Not quite as stupid as I thought.
 
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