Didache kingdoms all collapse

[Sheliak Lawyer]

Okay so your challenge if you choose to accept it is to have all four Alexandrian successor states collapse by the year 200 BC.

Factors allowed-Arab/Berber/Steppe invasions, constant warfare, plagues, and local uprisings.

Bonus if you have independent Egyptian run Egypt.

You can have Anatolian empires conquering Greece and Mesopotamia whatever just have it so that when the Roman's start looking to the eastern Mediterranean the Ptolemaic states no longer exist and hence Rome conquers none of them.

 

[cmakk1012]

Why would Rome not conquer them if they weren't Greek states?

 

[Sheliak Lawyer]

Why would Rome not conquer them if they weren't Greek states?

I meant that in the sense that they wouldn't exist. The Roman's can still conquer the east but the Didache kingdoms must not exist by that point.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Okay so your challenge if you choose to accept it is to have all four Alexandrian successor states collapse by the year 200 BC.

Factors allowed-Arab/Berber/Steppe invasions, constant warfare, plagues, and local uprisings.

Bonus if you have independent Egyptian run Egypt.

You can have Anatolian empires conquering Greece and Mesopotamia whatever just have it so that when the Roman's start looking to the eastern Mediterranean the Ptolemaic states no longer exist and hence Rome conquers none of them.

This is difficult. Macedon is easy enough. Any number of things could go badly during the Galatian invasion and Macedon could be settled by these invaders if they have more success than IOTL. The fall of the Ptolemies would have to be a result of some uprising by the natives, which is only really possible after the Ptolemies arm them in significant numbers, which they will only do in a truly desperate situation, such as at the Battle of Raphia. But then you run into a concurrent problem. In that situation, the Seleucid Empire is in a strong position from their resurgence under Antiochus III, and preventing the success of Antiochus III is crucial to getting the Seleucid state to fall apart (even then, it would likely still be around in 200 BCE, if in diminished form).

 

[Sheliak Lawyer]

This is difficult. Macedon is easy enough. Any number of things could go badly during the Galatian invasion and Macedon could be settled by these invaders if they have more success than IOTL. The fall of the Ptolemies would have to be a result of some uprising by the natives, which is only really possible after the Ptolemies arm them in significant numbers, which they will only do in a truly desperate situation, such as at the Battle of Raphia. But then you run into a concurrent problem. In that situation, the Seleucid Empire is in a strong position from their resurgence under Antiochus III, and preventing the success of Antiochus III is crucial to getting the Seleucid state to fall apart (even then, it would likely still be around in 200 BCE, if in diminished form).

Perhaps the ptolemies collapse as a result of Libyan/Nubian expansion, local uprisings/ and war with the Seleucids while the Seleucids simaltaneously collapse from domestic strife and a Parthian invasion from the east maybe with Arab raiders and Mithridates.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Perhaps the ptolemies collapse as a result of Libyan/Nubian expansion, local uprisings/ and war with the Seleucids while the Seleucids simaltaneously collapse from domestic strife and a Parthian invasion from the east maybe with Arab raiders and Mithridates.

If the Seleucids are strong enough to put enough pressure to cause the Ptolemies to collapse (because other external and internal pressures, by themselves, are not enough to cause the Ptolemies to collapse. Even at their weakest point, the Ptolemies were still too strong for the Egyptian rebellion IOTL to succeed), then they aren't weak enough to succumb to the Parthians. IOTL after Antiochus III stabilized things, the only thing that weakened the Seleucids enough to where they couldn't manage their eastern frontier was Roman intervention.

 

[Sheliak Lawyer]

That's why I have proposed a confluence of factors that damage all three(or four) states equally.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

That's why I have proposed a confluence of factors that damage all three(or four) states equally.

It's just really hard to get that by 200 BCE. IOTL it was the Roman arrival that did this. The best you can get with the Seleucids is a slow decline. Maybe if you manufacture a Persian revolt...just not sure how you can do that, given the Seleucids were very aware of this and gave Persis special treatment accordingly.

Basically, it's very easy to get the Seleucid Empire to gradually disintegrate, with the periphery slipping from their grasp and having them slowly cave in on themselves, which is kind of what happened IOTL. It's a lot harder to get them to just collapse.

 

[edvardas]

The parthians could invade while the Maccabees are revolting

 

[SlyDessertFox]

The parthians could invade while the Maccabees are revolting

The OP says to have them collapse by 200 BCE. The Maccabees revolted well after that.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

The Diadochi states were significantly settled with Greeks, to the extent that Parthia kept Greek as its lingua franca for pretty much its entire existence, and even the Sassanids used some Greek in their first days. It would be difficult to get rid of all the Hellenistic influence.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

For the Seleucid Empire to collapse, perhaps Bagadates I, satrap in Persis, decides to bide his time and rally the Persian aristocracy to the idea of overthrowing the Seleucids as opposed to just asserting his independence as soon as Seleucus passes away. Assert themselves as the true successors to the Achaemenid dynasty and paint the Seleucids as foreign interlopers. Maybe he gets a few defectors from the Macedonian satraps, promising not to cut their heads in exchange for their support or at least neutrality. Maybe cutting some sort of deal with the Maurya in the east? Then declare open revolt and best case scenario is that the Seleucids are forced to give up their eastern satrapies to the newly instated Bagadatid (?) Empire. Successors can focus on ripping away Mesopotamia and then seize Syria itself.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

For the Seleucid Empire to collapse, perhaps Bagadates I, satrap in Persis, decides to bide his time and rally the Persian aristocracy to the idea of overthrowing the Seleucids as opposed to just asserting his independence as soon as Seleucus passes away. Assert themselves as the true successors to the Achaemenid dynasty and paint the Seleucids as foreign interlopers. Maybe he gets a few defectors from the Macedonian satraps, promising not to cut their heads in exchange for their support or at least neutrality. Maybe cutting some sort of deal with the Maurya in the east? Then declare open revolt and best case scenario is that the Seleucids are forced to give up their eastern satrapies to the newly instated Bagadatid (?) Empire. Successors can focus on ripping away Mesopotamia and then seize Syria itself.

I'm not sure how successful he can be. Antiochus had Sogdian blood and had spent a lot of time in the East during Seleucus's reign which must have won him a lot of friends in the area.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I'm not sure how successful he can be. Antiochus had Sogdian blood and had spent a lot of time in the East during Seleucus's reign which must have won him a lot of friends in the area.

Yes. That's why his rebellion ended up failing. It's the only plausible scenario I can think of in terms of a native seizing control of Persia. Bactria would likely go to its own devices as the isolate of Hellenistic culture in the east even earlier than OTL.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Yes. That's why his rebellion ended up failing. It's the only plausible scenario I can think of in terms of a native seizing control of Persia. Bactria would likely go to its own devices as the isolate of Hellenistic culture in the east even earlier than OTL.

This might be a little gamey, but maybe have Antiochus come down with an illness shortly after Seleucus dies and succumb to it. That might give Bagadates an opportunity.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

This might be a little gamey, but maybe have Antiochus come down with an illness shortly after Seleucus dies and succumb to it. That might give Bagadates an opportunity.

There's an idea for a timeline!