Did White Russia ever have a chance against the Bolsheviks?

So granted I don't know much about the Russian Civil War, other than the basics (i.e. Lenin and the Bolsheviks fought and rallied the lower classes with promises of a better Russia, Western Intervention against the Bolsheviks, etc), but back to the question. Did the White Russian's really have a chance against them, or was it basically over and had a snowball's chance in hell?

If it was actually possible for a White Russian victory, what would you need?

EDIT- If this is one of those topics that seems to be like beating a dead horse sorry
 
One problem of Whites was that them hadn't unified leadership and clear plan for Russia. Their only goal was beat Bolsheviks and restore borders of Imperial Russia. And them should have something giving for lower classes.
 
What the Whites would need:

1) Popular support, the had none. The Reds had just a little, but just a little is way better than none.

2) The White Generals need less of an ego, too much useless soloing, too little coordinated efforts.

3) Somehow the Czech legion need to stay, they were the one thing about the Whites that actually was functioning

4) The Whites could really need some support from the seceding parts of the Russian Empire (Finland, Poland etc.), their refusal to alnowledge the independence of these countries (completely idiotic moves) hurt them tremendously (no help whatsoever).
 
1) Popular support, the had none. The Reds had just a little, but just a little is way better than none.

It didn't help that the Whites were just as bad, in some cases worse, than the Reds when it came to atrocious behavior. Denikin, frex, was notorious for leaving pogroms in the wake of his armies and even the best behaved White generals weren't any better than their Bolshevik counterparts in that department.
 
You'd need to find a way to break the Bolshevik's grip on the central position in Russia. From the October/November revolution onwards they command the heights of the Russian industry, controlling from St. Petersburg through to Moscow and large swathes of territory around it. The Whites were always on the fringes of Russia, and were unable to present a unified front for that reason as well as the competing interests of the different White Armies. Western Intervention was too weak to offer strong support to the Whites, and it can be argued that it was to the Bolsheviks' benefit, as it tarnished White legitimacy.

I think you'll need to drastically reduce Bolshevik gains following the dissolution of the Provisional Government. Fracturing the Bolsheviks somehow would also work, but that's a pretty challenging task given their ideological unity and their recognition that the power struggle for control would come after they'd dealt with the non-communists.

Perhaps by having a rallying figure for the Whites, not sure how you could do it given their dearth in that department! If you unify the Whites and force them to recognize the loss (or at least temporary loss) of the peripheral seceding areas of the Empire (Baltics, Poland, Finland, Caucasians, maybe Ukraine) they could strike an alliance with those new states to defeat the Bolsheviks. But to do that you'd need to change the leadership of the White forces, and that requires a PoD before the war, maybe before the February/March revolution.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I'm not an expert in the Russian Civil War. Still, from what I have read, it seems to me that not only did the Whites have a chance against the Bolsheviks, but it's rather quite surprising that they didn't win. Lack of unity between the different armies and factions seems to have been their main downfall.
 
Yes they did, you just need a leader for them to rally around, and not to piss off all the neighboring nations. Idk who would lead this army but a less successful October Revolution with Russia in continued chaos would be interesting, as one wonders how far would the Germans go.
 
Did the White Russian's really have a chance against them, or was it basically over and had a snowball's chance in hell?
Yes and no.

As early as late 1918, when the Bolshevik Party state apparatus was still busy establishing itself in Petrograd and Moscow proper (two cities rife with right-wing dissent in the early days of the civil war), a coup was highly possible.

The British naval commander Francis Cromie comes to mind as an individual who, had he lived, might have been able to pull off a coup with broad support from officers, nobles, and middle class citizens.

But the Cheka nipped his little coup threat right in the bud rather quickly and efficiently. As harsh as the Cheka was, without a political police given unusual extraordinary powers to combat any and all threats to Bolshevism, the workers' and peasants' government of Lenin and Trotsky would have collapsed from within by internal dissent rather than from without by military might on the battlefield.

A right-wing, hugely conservative military regime would be in order, presupposing disbandment of the Red Guard workers' militia and the forcible dissolution of the soviets along with the obvious banning of the Bolshevik Party or any radical leftist force in general for that matter.

As for reasons why the Whites lost:

Popular support, the had none. The Reds had just a little, but just a little is way better than none.
This. As brutal as both sides were to the population as a whole, the Bolshevik vision of universal class struggle wrapped around the promise of workers' control of industry, revolutionary land reform, and direct soviet democracy attracted many more individuals over to the side of the Reds than the Whites were capable of attracting.

The Whites were mainly in opposition to the seizure of power by the radical (Bolshevik) left. However, no clear cut cause actually existed for what one would do after Bolshevism was vanquished. Some wanted a strong military dictatorship; others wanted the complete restoration of the Czarist monarchy; yet more yearned for the reconvening of a Constituent Assembly as to form a government firmly under moderate socialist control.

Rather than there being a single, unifying vision, there was a whole host of visions competing against each other struggling to assume mastery over the White movement.

Furthermore, for much of the civil war in a typical village, land reform was reversed in favor of the overthrown landowner, the local administrative soviet representing most of the village's populace was dissolved, etc.

It wasn't until 1921, in the Crimea under the White officer Wrangel, that the White movement finally figured out that it badly needed the support of the peasantry if it was to sustain an army in the field and ensure victory on the battlefield over the Reds

By that point, the White movement was all but dead. Wrangel's evacuation of his troops from the Crimea effectively ended any and all talk of a White Russian movement capable of resisting Bolshevism on its own without foreign support.

The Reds it can be argued won due to having persuaded the poor and middle peasants of the righteousness of their cause, which the average villager believed to be equated with land to the tiller which was enough of a promise for them to fall in closely behind the Bolsheviks' ranks.

The White Generals need less of an ego, too much useless soloing, too little coordinated efforts.
Indeed. They not only needed more sincere coordination between individual commanders out in the field, but they also desperately needed to rally around a sympathetic, commanding figure to rival Lenin's own charismatic stature and great statesmanship.

Hence the murder of Czar Nicholas II by the Cheka, as it was feared that the Whites could use him as a figure head for the rest of the nation to rally behind.

Kerensky, fully discredited and in exile, would hardly serve as a forceful leader capable of taking charge of millions. Besides, he himself had little interest in taking sides in the ensuing conflict regardless of whether or not a White officer or two asked him to head their cause.

For these reasons and many more, the Whites lost and the Reds won.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1487

It didn't help that the Whites were just as bad, in some cases worse, than the Reds when it came to atrocious behavior. Denikin, frex, was notorious for leaving pogroms in the wake of his armies and even the best behaved White generals weren't any better than their Bolshevik counterparts in that department.
Yeah, the White's weren't too subtle about their thoughts on the Jews in the Bolshevik movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#During_the_Civil_War_period_in_Ukraine

WhiteArmyPropagandaPosterOfTrotsky.jpg
 
The Reds it can be argued won due to having persuaded the poor and middle peasants of the righteousness of their cause, which the average villager believed to be equated with land to the tiller which was enough of a promise for them to fall in closely behind the Bolsheviks' ranks.

Indeed. They not only needed more sincere coordination between individual commanders out in the field, but they also desperately needed to rally around a sympathetic, commanding figure to rival Lenin's own charismatic stature and great statesmanship.

I don't know about having persuaded poor and middle peasants or just put the fear of death into them. True story - my great-grandmother's brother (they were Russian-Poles) was a teenager taken outside their home by a Bolshevik goon squad and immediately shot in the head. If the rest of the family didn't want to be shot they would have to support the Reds (including rations and boarding). My great-grandmother's family would be classified as "middle" peasants. Wealthy enough to have their own home but no more than that. Also, the Reds commonly kidnapped and/or executed family members of the Russian officer corps in order to force them to fight for the Reds. There is a reason why the majority of the Russian population remained non-members of the Communist Party.

Hence the murder of Czar Nicholas II by the Cheka, as it was feared that the Whites could use him as a figure head for the rest of the nation to rally behind.

Kerensky, fully discredited and in exile, would hardly serve as a forceful leader capable of taking charge of millions. Besides, he himself had little interest in taking sides in the ensuing conflict regardless of whether or not a White officer or two asked him to head their cause.

For these reasons and many more, the Whites lost and the Reds won.

The shot the Tsar because they hated the Romanovs. I've never really believed the figurehead thing because if so there was no reason to kill his wife (who wasn't a Romanov) and his four daughters (who had no succession rights especially with male Grand Dukes still living abroad) as well. And they separately killed the Tsarina's sister, who was a Hesse by birth, and who had spent the last decade as a nun in a convent. I doubt anyone saw HER as a figurehead. But they killed her anyway. Trotsky, who was surprised at the killing of the entire Family, said it was ordered by Lenin and Moscow (and it was - let's face it), so that the troops and officers of the Bolsheviks knew there was no going back.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened in the Red inner circle (Trotsky/Lenin and the others) if there was a successful White offensive and the Bolsheviks were pushed back on the run and lost major cities. What the Whites needed was a general pragmatic enough to make compromises with potential allies (the Poles, the Baltic States, Mannerheim in Finland) but intelligent enough to strategize proper mobilization of the forces they did have (which were scattered).

Also, if Bolshevism in Russia collapses, the rise of Nazism might be entirely put off as well.
 
IIRC there are several potential points of departure that could have seen the Whites win militarily against the Bolsheviks, I'd have to dig out the previous threads to actually say what they were. But yes it was possible so I've been led to believe.
 

Hnau

Banned
What the Whites would need:

1) Popular support, the had none. The Reds had just a little, but just a little is way better than none.

The narodniks were popular throughout Russia at the time, more than the Bolsheviks. Many of their leaders joined the Whites. If the White Army had been the winning side for long enough, and ditched their aristocratic element, they could have won the support of the Russian people.[/quote]
 
Top