I am considering a timeline where the Central powers win the Great War and are able to force a Brest - Litovsk type peace treaty on the Entente. How badly would the Germans have to beat USA in order to get a large indemnity and also occupation of Cuba? Maybe Phillipines?
Deutschland uber Alles
- Thread starter unsunghero
- Start date
How about US and britain don't participate, russia and france are turned into puppets, and the germany invades britain. After a long war the brits are conquerd and japan and china are invaded from siberia. With the resources of all of europe, asia, oceania, and africa, germany lauches a massive seaborn attack which conquers latin america. From there they move north and launch the final war on the united states, which they finally conquer in 1940. 
Yossarian said:How about US and britain don't participate, russia and france are turned into puppets, and the germany invades britain. After a long war the brits are conquerd and japan and china are invaded from siberia. With the resources of all of europe, asia, oceania, and africa, germany lauches a massive seaborn attack which conquers latin america. From there they move north and launch the final war on the united states, which they finally conquer in 1940.
Yes...Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen...Mwahahahahaha!!!
I don't see how the Germans can do anything all that bad to the US. The German navy has already been walloped, courtesy of the Brits, and the US navy is untouched. Even if the defeat happens after the US enters the war, and American troops are defeated... so what? Germany can win the war in Europe, but there's just no way for her to take the war to the New World. The US can simply pack up, go home, and thumb her nose at Germany from across the Atlantic. Granted, the US would be smarting from the defeat, and would likely enter a new round of military buildups and isolationism....
unsunghero said:
The Central Powers capability of winning the Great War (or any roughly similar ATL war of the same period) go down to very close to zero at the time the USA enters the war. The High Seas Fleet is already outgunned, and the USA has vastly greater industrial capacity than Germany (the only significant Central Power left by 1917), and what is for all practical purposes an inexhaustible supply of manpower. The Germans occupying the Phillippines is well, implausible, and occupation of Cuba pointless, since it was an independent nation by then, and if the Germans have somehow acquired the capacity to launch an amphibous invasion across the Atlantic, they should pick a target on U.S. soil or maybe somewhere in Canada where there is a land route to invade.
For what it's worth, I think the best chance for a Central Powers win is in 1914, ideally with a saner alternative to the Schlieffen Plan, and before things get bogged down in trench warfare, with lesser but still significant chances in 1915 and 1916, and even in 1917 if they avoid things like the Zimmerman Telegram (or at least avoid its discovery) and don't reopen unrestricted submarine warfare.
Defeat of France? Quite possible, just need to work a few small tactical blunders in as a POD
Defeat of the United Kingdom? unrestriceted submarine warfare is the only logical way do do this without a pre-war POD, but given that the Poms did manage to at least partially counter unrestriceted submarine warfare in OTL I doubt it is a sure fire method. If you are realy desprate for a German victory go back to the naval arms race and have Germany as the first nation to build Drednought type battleships -mind you the UK will still probably manage to over take you in production
Defeat the USA? Probably easier to find a method to keep them out of the war, but lets assume that doesn't work.
First lets assume that you have already knocked out the UK (or else you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting out of the North Sea let alone to the American coast) hence your opposition consists exclusively of the USN, while smaller than the High Seas Fleet the USN is probably more than capable of defeating the type of force dispatched for this opperation (the older German ships are hardly suitable for long ranged opperation and any captured Entente ships will need to be modified, have a crew trained for them, etc hence these vessels are unavalible and the smaller number of suitable vessels must be dispatched).
Assuming you have defeated the USN it is then a case of landing troops and seeing how the US reacts -I would give you a resanable chance of getting troops ashore and capturing some cities but have no idea if that would be enought to bring the US to the table... Conclusion: requires defeat of UK first hence unlikely; also requires defeat of the USN probably about 50-50 either way; land battles will favour the Germans, troops already vetrans from campaign against France and UK, so likely several coastal cities will be captured but I doubt the US will give in; total conclusion bloody unlikely
Defeat of the United Kingdom? unrestriceted submarine warfare is the only logical way do do this without a pre-war POD, but given that the Poms did manage to at least partially counter unrestriceted submarine warfare in OTL I doubt it is a sure fire method. If you are realy desprate for a German victory go back to the naval arms race and have Germany as the first nation to build Drednought type battleships -mind you the UK will still probably manage to over take you in production
Defeat the USA? Probably easier to find a method to keep them out of the war, but lets assume that doesn't work.
First lets assume that you have already knocked out the UK (or else you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting out of the North Sea let alone to the American coast) hence your opposition consists exclusively of the USN, while smaller than the High Seas Fleet the USN is probably more than capable of defeating the type of force dispatched for this opperation (the older German ships are hardly suitable for long ranged opperation and any captured Entente ships will need to be modified, have a crew trained for them, etc hence these vessels are unavalible and the smaller number of suitable vessels must be dispatched).
Assuming you have defeated the USN it is then a case of landing troops and seeing how the US reacts -I would give you a resanable chance of getting troops ashore and capturing some cities but have no idea if that would be enought to bring the US to the table... Conclusion: requires defeat of UK first hence unlikely; also requires defeat of the USN probably about 50-50 either way; land battles will favour the Germans, troops already vetrans from campaign against France and UK, so likely several coastal cities will be captured but I doubt the US will give in; total conclusion bloody unlikely
At no time in the past 133 years
was it possible for Germany to inflict ANY kind of national defeat on the United States!
In truth, for the entire time, there was no possibility of any German state to mount any sort of attack greater than a U-Boat attack, anywhere in the Western hemisphere on any United States possession. As for the concept of a German invasion of anything American, the idea is as near impossible as it can get.
The german Navy, at no time since 1871, has possessed sufficient naval power to project an army, across the atlantic ocean, sufficent to invade anywhere in North America. While it is true that in the 1880s, prior to the reawakening of the US NAvy, there was precious little USN to resist anyone with, the Germans were themselves weak enough at sea, such that while they might be able to beat the USN of 1880, they couldn't transport an army here! After the renaisance of the USN in the 1890's, up to the present day, germany has NEVER had sufficient forces to overcome the USN, let alone sufficient shipping to transport and support an army capable of invasion!
unsunghero said:
was it possible for Germany to inflict ANY kind of national defeat on the United States!
In truth, for the entire time, there was no possibility of any German state to mount any sort of attack greater than a U-Boat attack, anywhere in the Western hemisphere on any United States possession. As for the concept of a German invasion of anything American, the idea is as near impossible as it can get.
The german Navy, at no time since 1871, has possessed sufficient naval power to project an army, across the atlantic ocean, sufficent to invade anywhere in North America. While it is true that in the 1880s, prior to the reawakening of the US NAvy, there was precious little USN to resist anyone with, the Germans were themselves weak enough at sea, such that while they might be able to beat the USN of 1880, they couldn't transport an army here! After the renaisance of the USN in the 1890's, up to the present day, germany has NEVER had sufficient forces to overcome the USN, let alone sufficient shipping to transport and support an army capable of invasion!
May I reccommend a look at...
Letterstime?
Just be warned, you must have a high tolerance for pun-ishment.
(LT updates appear on the Naval Fiction Board.)
As the LT author is trying to ensure, the only way the Germans win WW1 is to keep the Allies neutral.
Now, in one of my scenarios, Schliffen gets thrown off his horse before creating his Plan, so the Germans in 1914 adopt a saner "Russia first" policy. After KO'ing the Tsar's finest (and perhaps the quick end on the Eastern Front keeps Lenin in Switzerland...) the Huns turn their attention to the French (where they have simply been "holding the line")...
Letterstime?
Just be warned, you must have a high tolerance for pun-ishment.
(LT updates appear on the Naval Fiction Board.)
As the LT author is trying to ensure, the only way the Germans win WW1 is to keep the Allies neutral.
Now, in one of my scenarios, Schliffen gets thrown off his horse before creating his Plan, so the Germans in 1914 adopt a saner "Russia first" policy. After KO'ing the Tsar's finest (and perhaps the quick end on the Eastern Front keeps Lenin in Switzerland...) the Huns turn their attention to the French (where they have simply been "holding the line")...
jgack
Banned
Why would Germany even want to invade the U.S.? We weren't their enemy. The U.S. had no interest in european politics until Wilson maneuvered us into a war we neither needed nor wanted. Germany wasn't interested in the western hemesphere any more than we were interested in the eastern hemesphere. Germany's war aims were the breaking of the encirclement of the Entente and the weakening of France to a point where it would be unable to harm Germany for the next 15-20 years. By that point Germany expected to be, and would have been, too far ahead for France to catch and therefore Germany could dominate it with little effort. As far as Britain was concerned, Germany wanted nothing more than the right to be a major world power, which required a battle fleet as well as colonies such as German East Africa, which, rather unfortunatly for Germany sat astride the most convenient line for the Cape to Cairo railway and was the source of the real problem between Germany and Britain. Another issue for Germany was a bit of room between it and Russia, easily satisfied by Poland, the Baltic states and Ukraine becoming semi-autonimous kingdoms ruled by Hohenzollern princes. The final issue for Germany was the fomation of a european economic pact similar to the EU but dominated by Germany alone which would ensure that the countries of europe remained endebted to Germany. Give Germany hat and it had no reason for war with the U.S. and certainly no desires for ruling the world.
Redbeard
Banned
I don't see any reason for USA to give up anything outside the reach of German powerprojection, no matter how badly the US Forces in Europe have been mauled. By 1917-18 Germany clearly couldn't project power outside the European continent. Unless of course we're talking about the entire USN and RN being sunk in a Jutland II - but I'll reckon that as ASB.
But if Germany wins WWI decisively she also has the chance of turning the other (continental) European powers into co-operating vassals. Something like Denmark and Austria was after 1864 and 1866 respectively. That sure wouldn't be easy with France and Russia, but can't be excluded, especially not if a common foe (loot) can be found in the old seapowers. A type like Bismarck at the helm could do it. In the first decades UK and her huge shipbuilding capacity will be the strongest enemy of Germany, but with the continental matters solved, Germany has the option of eventually outbuilding UK. If USA and UK can stay closely together they can match the resources of continental Europe, but divided they are inferior.
If UK is subdued on line with continental Europe, Germany and vassals will have the resources available to outbuild also USA. If Germany and vassals gains control over the Atlantic she also can project power on the American continents - eventually invade.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
But if Germany wins WWI decisively she also has the chance of turning the other (continental) European powers into co-operating vassals. Something like Denmark and Austria was after 1864 and 1866 respectively. That sure wouldn't be easy with France and Russia, but can't be excluded, especially not if a common foe (loot) can be found in the old seapowers. A type like Bismarck at the helm could do it. In the first decades UK and her huge shipbuilding capacity will be the strongest enemy of Germany, but with the continental matters solved, Germany has the option of eventually outbuilding UK. If USA and UK can stay closely together they can match the resources of continental Europe, but divided they are inferior.
If UK is subdued on line with continental Europe, Germany and vassals will have the resources available to outbuild also USA. If Germany and vassals gains control over the Atlantic she also can project power on the American continents - eventually invade.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
jgack: while I agree with most of what you said, giving Imperial Germany all of Europe will make it the undisputed master of the world; the US will never have been pushed into becoming a major world power (to refer to Yamamoto, the sleeping dragon would never be awakened). Also consider that Europe was, at this time, the absolute leader of the world; both Britain and Germany could have defeated the US in an actual war (the British navy would have dominated the US', and the German army would have run all over the continent. Hell, the Americans actually turned down the Lewis machine gun).
Remove Great Britain, and give all of Europe's resources and infrastructure to the Germans, and within twenty years the German navy will dwarf anything the Americans can produce, and the German army will be then what the US army is now in comparison to other armies in the world.
There is one thing I am consistently dissapointed at in the forums, and that is the assumption of most people that the US cannot lose. World War I, World War II, and the Cold War are all assumed that "the US wins as soon as it gets involved," and any POD having another nation militarily defeat the US is seen as a farce (for example, it's been oft stated that the US cannot be invaded, and yet there are no problems with the US invading others, though it has to cross the same distance). Here are some ways for the US to get involved in and lose World War I:
POD: German general does not drive his automobile straight into a French patrol, and so the French High Command doesn't realize that von Kluck's First Army is going to hit the British at the Marne, rather than the French Sixth Army and Paris. Thus, the French Fourth Army is sent to defend Paris from a direct assault that is not to materialize; instead, the Germans strike hard at the British, who are still disheveled after the loss at Mons, and drive a wedge between the British and French forces. Panic sets in and the British retreat to the coast, as their breakout attempt is beaten back at a heavy cost. The Germans continue with their encirclement, attacking Paris from the rear, and General Gallieni, the military governor of the city, is killed by an artillery blast. The French retreat south, but the war is over; the Germans continue to chase them south, inflicting defeat after defeat on the now completely demoralized and broken French army, and France finally surrenders on Oct. 8th. The British army, at full retreat, fights the Germans all the way to Dunkirk, where the might of the Royal Navy holds the Germans at bay until the BEF is evacuated.
France formally surrenders to Germany, and cedes the remnant of Lorraine that it had retained since the Franco-Prussian War. Germany honors its vow to Belgium and returns all Belgian land, as well as paying an indemnity to Belgium (which Germany extracts from France in the peace treaty). In the east, the Russians are being smashed, left and right, by the German armies that are now reinforced by the armies from the West, and the defeat of Russia seems all but certain. Great Britain, however, refuses to surrender to the Germans; Lord Kitchener becomes an inspiration to the people when he states that the British will "fight them on the rolling French hillsides, fight them on the snowy Russian plains, fight them on the high seas and in the heart of Germany itself. We will never surrender." The Royal Navy continues to hold back the High Seas Fleet while maintaining a large enough force at home waters to annihilate any possibility of a German invasion; without the skyrocketed army costs of OTL WWI, the Royal Navy grows even larger, as dreadnoughts, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers are pumped out as fast as the shipyards can make them. Furthermore, the BEF, now filled to the brim with volunteers (and, with the British now understanding that a small, professional army means diddly squat, much larger) is sent via India to Russia to bolster the Russian troops. The BEF succeeds, here, and the German advance into Russia is halted when the Germans encounter what the British refer to as the Royal Line, a series of incredibly fortified trenches that are impervious to anything the Germans throw at them. These lines are manned by Russian troops, eager to get out of the field, and Russian losses plummet.
The Germans, realizing that, if they are unable to swiftly end the war in the east, France might rethink its surrender, are quick to seize French military equipment, including the quick-firing French 75s, which they put to good use in the east. Furthermore, seeing that the British are the props holding up the Russian army, the German command undertakes a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare to stop the flow of resources to the island nation, and starve Great Britain just as Great Britain had intended to starve Germany.
It's really late... I'll continue this in the morning.
Remove Great Britain, and give all of Europe's resources and infrastructure to the Germans, and within twenty years the German navy will dwarf anything the Americans can produce, and the German army will be then what the US army is now in comparison to other armies in the world.
There is one thing I am consistently dissapointed at in the forums, and that is the assumption of most people that the US cannot lose. World War I, World War II, and the Cold War are all assumed that "the US wins as soon as it gets involved," and any POD having another nation militarily defeat the US is seen as a farce (for example, it's been oft stated that the US cannot be invaded, and yet there are no problems with the US invading others, though it has to cross the same distance). Here are some ways for the US to get involved in and lose World War I:
POD: German general does not drive his automobile straight into a French patrol, and so the French High Command doesn't realize that von Kluck's First Army is going to hit the British at the Marne, rather than the French Sixth Army and Paris. Thus, the French Fourth Army is sent to defend Paris from a direct assault that is not to materialize; instead, the Germans strike hard at the British, who are still disheveled after the loss at Mons, and drive a wedge between the British and French forces. Panic sets in and the British retreat to the coast, as their breakout attempt is beaten back at a heavy cost. The Germans continue with their encirclement, attacking Paris from the rear, and General Gallieni, the military governor of the city, is killed by an artillery blast. The French retreat south, but the war is over; the Germans continue to chase them south, inflicting defeat after defeat on the now completely demoralized and broken French army, and France finally surrenders on Oct. 8th. The British army, at full retreat, fights the Germans all the way to Dunkirk, where the might of the Royal Navy holds the Germans at bay until the BEF is evacuated.
France formally surrenders to Germany, and cedes the remnant of Lorraine that it had retained since the Franco-Prussian War. Germany honors its vow to Belgium and returns all Belgian land, as well as paying an indemnity to Belgium (which Germany extracts from France in the peace treaty). In the east, the Russians are being smashed, left and right, by the German armies that are now reinforced by the armies from the West, and the defeat of Russia seems all but certain. Great Britain, however, refuses to surrender to the Germans; Lord Kitchener becomes an inspiration to the people when he states that the British will "fight them on the rolling French hillsides, fight them on the snowy Russian plains, fight them on the high seas and in the heart of Germany itself. We will never surrender." The Royal Navy continues to hold back the High Seas Fleet while maintaining a large enough force at home waters to annihilate any possibility of a German invasion; without the skyrocketed army costs of OTL WWI, the Royal Navy grows even larger, as dreadnoughts, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers are pumped out as fast as the shipyards can make them. Furthermore, the BEF, now filled to the brim with volunteers (and, with the British now understanding that a small, professional army means diddly squat, much larger) is sent via India to Russia to bolster the Russian troops. The BEF succeeds, here, and the German advance into Russia is halted when the Germans encounter what the British refer to as the Royal Line, a series of incredibly fortified trenches that are impervious to anything the Germans throw at them. These lines are manned by Russian troops, eager to get out of the field, and Russian losses plummet.
The Germans, realizing that, if they are unable to swiftly end the war in the east, France might rethink its surrender, are quick to seize French military equipment, including the quick-firing French 75s, which they put to good use in the east. Furthermore, seeing that the British are the props holding up the Russian army, the German command undertakes a policy of unrestricted submarine warfare to stop the flow of resources to the island nation, and starve Great Britain just as Great Britain had intended to starve Germany.
It's really late... I'll continue this in the morning.
The best way for this to happen-a slim chance at best- looks for me like that: Germany adopts a fleet treaty with Great Britain sometimes at the beginning of the Century-it limits the German HSF to 50 % of the British Fleet. There is also some colonial swapping (like with Heligoland before) Net effect is that ´Great Britain is a backsliding member of the Alliance. (For that to happen it is quite likly best to have Friedich Wilhelm survive and probably take the helm a bit earlier) When WW1 breaks out, Germany turns East, in a virtual 180 degree of the Schlieffen plan. Trench warfare won`t happen in the east, since the terrain is simply too big, and if the russian army isn`t far better than OTL they will collapse far earlier. Lacking the thrust through Belgium, Britain might not enter the war as soon as it did in OTL. If France follows it`s plan 17 as in OTL they will get clobbered again. With the Ukraine in German hands a year earlier than OTL the famines of 1917/18 won`t happen, and Germany won`t have the dire resources problems that plagued it in OTL. If Great Britain has by that time not entered the war, there is no sub campaign, and a very low possibility for the US to take much notice. If Germany perfects the Assault Troop tactics in the East as in OTL and happenes to use them in the West at about the same time as the French mutinies then a French collapse is practically necessary.
With that war over Germany might well deceide that it would take relativly large chunks ot of russias teritory, either by direct anexion, or through puppet states like a new Poland and the Ukraine. New emnity might come from british and US pressure to keep German demands smaller, as well as demands for colonial concessions. Britain and the US might be tempted to seize some colonies in order to get the job done.
The post-war German gouvernment sees the US and the UK as possible enemies and perfect two new technologies started during the war: closed circuit diesel engines for submarines and guided gliders launched from Zeppelins and later Bombers. (The diesels were stopped by an unbelivably stupid burocrat and the gliders ran into trouble with the wire guidance-lets burn the burocrat as a heretic <G> and lets take Flettner as the project manager for the gliders, he was both an expert for radio control as well as aerodynamic controls) Reinforced German arrogance and British need for a more balanced continent clash in the late 20`s but the naval battle takes place too close to German airspace. Without the lessons of Skagerak the British ships have far too unprotected decks and are penetrated by the lighter bombs of TTL, with the HSF doing the rest. The blockade around Great Britain forces the US fleet into a "show of force" in which they hope to make Germany back down. They get intercepted by the subs where no one expects them-in the middle of the Atlantic. Without the submarine war of OTL subs might be taken much more lightly (those damned tubes can never sink a fast battleship or something like that) With closed circuit diesels the subs can manouver far faster and loger underwater than OTL. With a major part of the US fleet damaged or destroyed and the US Army in a similar state as in 1916 OTL or so Germany might well deceide to dust off the plans from around the century and to invade the Eastern Seeboard.
All of the above in quite unlikly but at least to me, not ASB.
With that war over Germany might well deceide that it would take relativly large chunks ot of russias teritory, either by direct anexion, or through puppet states like a new Poland and the Ukraine. New emnity might come from british and US pressure to keep German demands smaller, as well as demands for colonial concessions. Britain and the US might be tempted to seize some colonies in order to get the job done.
The post-war German gouvernment sees the US and the UK as possible enemies and perfect two new technologies started during the war: closed circuit diesel engines for submarines and guided gliders launched from Zeppelins and later Bombers. (The diesels were stopped by an unbelivably stupid burocrat and the gliders ran into trouble with the wire guidance-lets burn the burocrat as a heretic <G> and lets take Flettner as the project manager for the gliders, he was both an expert for radio control as well as aerodynamic controls) Reinforced German arrogance and British need for a more balanced continent clash in the late 20`s but the naval battle takes place too close to German airspace. Without the lessons of Skagerak the British ships have far too unprotected decks and are penetrated by the lighter bombs of TTL, with the HSF doing the rest. The blockade around Great Britain forces the US fleet into a "show of force" in which they hope to make Germany back down. They get intercepted by the subs where no one expects them-in the middle of the Atlantic. Without the submarine war of OTL subs might be taken much more lightly (those damned tubes can never sink a fast battleship or something like that) With closed circuit diesels the subs can manouver far faster and loger underwater than OTL. With a major part of the US fleet damaged or destroyed and the US Army in a similar state as in 1916 OTL or so Germany might well deceide to dust off the plans from around the century and to invade the Eastern Seeboard.
All of the above in quite unlikly but at least to me, not ASB.
jgack
Banned
It is generally accepted that the U.S. can't be invaded because of America's love of guns. I don't think people in europe or elsewhere have any idea really of how many Americans have so many guns. In the event of an invasion of the U.S. it is generally accepted that you would see almost every person with a gun head to where ever the invasion is and fight as hard as they could. We would be talking about solders in the hundreds of millions. Now, I ask you, do you think even an army of a couple of million well trained solders, could really hope to defeat a guerrilla army of, let's say, 150 million? I don't think so. That's why most people don't think that the U.S. can be invaded. But I just don't think that the U.S. would care. It would be a long time before the Germans could have launched an invasion of the east coast (they would have to have cleaned up eastern europe and gotten revenge on Japan, as well as digest any new colonies) but even then I don't see why Germany would want a war with the U.S. Dominating most of europe would have gotten Germany much stronger, but they still would not look at war with America, and probably Britain too, with anything approaching happiness. America alone would stand a good chance and with Britain's almost certain help the Germans would be in some serious trouble. So I guess I just can't think of a reason why Germany and the U.S. should go to war.
Redbeard
Banned
jgack said:
Armed citizens, no matter how many (or if Americans), will have no chance against formed regular troops in battle. The guerilla war will of course be nasty, but actually easier for the occupier if its the entire US population taking part, as the occupiers then can, and will, fight (kill) anyone they meet, and still be sure that they are fighting the enemy. The really tricky guerilla war is where they smile when you look at them but you know some of them intend to kill you.
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
?What effect would a German Japanese Alliance againt Russia,make? Whe handwave away the 1905 war. and have Japan Dow in 1915 after France and Britain are engaged in Europe. If Japan makes it clear that they are only after Russia, Not DoW against the Brits/French. If Whe can Handwave a No DoW from Britian/France.
?would a Japanese Front Shorten The Russian War? Allowing Germany to move it's troops Westward before the US Entered.
?would a Japanese Front Shorten The Russian War? Allowing Germany to move it's troops Westward before the US Entered.
Redbeard,
The Swiss rebels against the Hapsburgs, once they were organized, defeated the Hapsburgs. The gap between military-civilian tech in WWI is somewhat larger than in the 1300s (civilians won't have tanks, planes, or large artillery, but Tommy guns were originally military weapons and Molotov cocktails make nice grenades and private gun ownership in the US then was far greater than today), but not insurmontable.
Eventually the Germans in this scenario would lose in the US, though it would be LONG and nasty. It may not even come to the complete and total capitulation of the US and the expulsion of the Germans by a popular resistance--the US could "trade space for time" and withdraw past, say the Appalachians, and build up behind the mountains (the Great Lakes industrial zone, and the East Coast stuff can be dismantled and carried away).
The Germans would have their rear and supply areas under attack by "local heroes" and their ghoulish reprisals (even if 3/4 of reports of their behavior in Belgium is propaganda, that leaves room for SOME misbehavior) will turn more folks against them. I doubt Imperial Germany had the ability of the Mongols to crush guerrilladom/terrorism by sheer ruthlessness (as Hulugu did with the Assassins). The guerrilladom might not be enough to defeat the Germans by itself, but it will certainly hamper attempts to cross the Appalachians.
Besides, in the event that the Royal Navy, which shouldered most of the burden of policing the Atlantic, is crushed by Germany, I think the US will start building up pronto. The Lewis machine gun will definitely be bought, and new stuff encouraged. The US went from having a tiny army in the 1930s to having a very powerful one in the early 1940s, all during peacetime, b/c FDR foresaw the need.
The Swiss rebels against the Hapsburgs, once they were organized, defeated the Hapsburgs. The gap between military-civilian tech in WWI is somewhat larger than in the 1300s (civilians won't have tanks, planes, or large artillery, but Tommy guns were originally military weapons and Molotov cocktails make nice grenades and private gun ownership in the US then was far greater than today), but not insurmontable.
Eventually the Germans in this scenario would lose in the US, though it would be LONG and nasty. It may not even come to the complete and total capitulation of the US and the expulsion of the Germans by a popular resistance--the US could "trade space for time" and withdraw past, say the Appalachians, and build up behind the mountains (the Great Lakes industrial zone, and the East Coast stuff can be dismantled and carried away).
The Germans would have their rear and supply areas under attack by "local heroes" and their ghoulish reprisals (even if 3/4 of reports of their behavior in Belgium is propaganda, that leaves room for SOME misbehavior) will turn more folks against them. I doubt Imperial Germany had the ability of the Mongols to crush guerrilladom/terrorism by sheer ruthlessness (as Hulugu did with the Assassins). The guerrilladom might not be enough to defeat the Germans by itself, but it will certainly hamper attempts to cross the Appalachians.
Besides, in the event that the Royal Navy, which shouldered most of the burden of policing the Atlantic, is crushed by Germany, I think the US will start building up pronto. The Lewis machine gun will definitely be bought, and new stuff encouraged. The US went from having a tiny army in the 1930s to having a very powerful one in the early 1940s, all during peacetime, b/c FDR foresaw the need.
Brilliantlight
Banned
Redbeard said:
It depends on how outnumbered said regulars are. If said regulars are outnumbered 10:1 they are going to have a hell of a hard time occupying it.