Der Kampf: The Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer

[Shockeye7665]

The animal naming kind of reminds me of the yenkess naming there tanks not the Austrians.

Maybe the whole Austrians naming their tanks after animals is more done by the common grunts in the field, while senior officials and technical documents give the vehicles a "much longer, complicated technical sounding name" or something like that.

Or maybe, the Austrian panzers names are actually named as such by the Allies, similar to how Japanese aircraft were given nicknames.

 

[RedSword12]

Alternate spin on things in my humble opinion, might be the case of no blitzkrieg word is created in this timeline, instead if a nations armed forces conducts a quick combined offensive/attack that shatters the enemy they would be compared to austrian army. They could even be called a "tip of the spear force" for there actions.

Hope I'm being clear with what I'm trying to say here.

I think the material limits of the Austrian armed forces means that they will never be in a position to set the benchmark for decisive victory. I suspect the Soviets, facing less dramatic defeats at the hands of a leaner if smarter Axis and thereby having more resources to work with when they get themselves sorted out, are in a better position to really be the trailblazers of the operational art, kinda like the Germans were IOTL. It would certainly make for an interesting dynamic during the Cold War if the Red Army is perceived somewhat like the Wehrmacht was IOTL (tempered of course by the very steep learning curve from its early depths of incompetence). Much higher military spending on the part of Western countries, I imagine, leading to lower investment in the welfare state.

Maybe the whole Austrians naming their tanks after animals is more done by the common grunts in the field, while senior officials and technical documents give the vehicles a "much longer, complicated technical sounding name" or something like that.

Or maybe, the Austrian panzers names are actually named as such by the Allies, similar to how Japanese aircraft were given nicknames.

I think person-based or company-based names (if at all) would be more in line with conventions of the age. Naming everything after an animal isn't really how things are done, even in this day and age when animal names are popular vehicle designations. It wasn't really in fashion in the 1930's and 40's.

 

[Keb]

I think person-based or company-based names (if at all) would be more in line with conventions of the age. Naming everything after an animal isn't really how things are done, even in this day and age when animal names are popular vehicle designations. It wasn't really in fashion in the 1930's and 40's.

IOTL, Austro-Hungarian and later Austrian used a simple (descriptive/function) M(year). Sometimes preceded by the manufacturer and often the M(year) was shortened to the final two digits.

Thus, you'd have Skoda Field Howitzer Model 1912 or the Skoda Feldhaubitze M1912 in the original form. Or the Steyr-Mannlicher Cavalry Repeating Carabine Model 1908.

Nicknames were, however, common, though they tended to be descriptive, too. Or used the name of the inventor. I don't offhand, recall any piece of kit getting an animal name. At most, it was the 'ruck-zuruck' for the M98 Mannlicher due to its straight-pull action.

So, I'd imagine a tank would be a M33 Schwerer Panzerwagen. As IOTL, the Austrians had a Steyr M35 Mittlerer Panzerwagen - actually an armoured car (after the Anschluss, it was referred to as the Steyr ADGZ).

 

[JAK]

I think the material limits of the Austrian armed forces means that they will never be in a position to set the benchmark for decisive victory. I suspect the Soviets, facing less dramatic defeats at the hands of a leaner if smarter Axis and thereby having more resources to work with when they get themselves sorted out, are in a better position to really be the trailblazers of the operational art, kinda like the Germans were IOTL. It would certainly make for an interesting dynamic during the Cold War if the Red Army is perceived somewhat like the Wehrmacht was IOTL. Much higher military spending on the part of Western countries, I imagine, leading to lower investment in the welfare state.

I feel like the Austrian army's ability to make a professional, robust and elite army would still earn it good ahura after the war. They might be considered the "imperial guard" of the axis armies and any small nation that has the ability to form such a professional and elite force in the future could be compared to Austria during ww2.

However I do like and support the idea of the red army getting the same operation/professional glaze the whermacht has in out timeline. For the west both the red army's Size and operational ability will scare them shirtless and might make a much more tense cold war. I feel like alot more former axis military leaders, especially austrian, will not face war crimes court just so the western allies can have these men on there side to give them somewhat an edge aganist the red army.

 

[Tanner151]

Alternate spin on things in my humble opinion, might be the case of no blitzkrieg word is created in this timeline, instead if a nations armed forces conducts a quick combined offensive/attack that shatters the enemy they would be compared to austrian army. They could even be called a "tip of the spear force" for there actions.

Hope I'm being clear with what I'm trying to say here.

Blitzkrieg, and the term, will exist. Germany’s civil war will show some inklings of that and as the restored German Empire resumes its place as a great power it will have much influence and sway, with the term blitzkrieg being adopted as time goes on. Stoßansturmen will be the Austrian version but while the West adopts blitzkrieg as the nickname, the future Bucharest Pact [Warsaw Pact ITTL] will adopt Deep Battle.

Also the Austrian naming there tanks as wolfs sound like an intresting spin instead of saying Panzer.

The animal naming kind of reminds me of the yenkess naming there tanks not the Austrians.

In my gracious opinion once again.

The Austrians will officially call them panzers mark 1, 2, 3 etc. but Anglo-French and later American forces will call them ‘Coyote’ or ‘Wolf’ etc as a common classification.

Maybe the whole Austrians naming their tanks after animals is more done by the common grunts in the field, while senior officials and technical documents give the vehicles a "much longer, complicated technical sounding name" or something like that.

Or maybe, the Austrian panzers names are actually named as such by the Allies, similar to how Japanese aircraft were given nicknames.

^this exactly, the bottom part.

I think the material limits of the Austrian armed forces means that they will never be in a position to set the benchmark for decisive victory. I suspect the Soviets, facing less dramatic defeats at the hands of a leaner if smarter Axis and thereby having more resources to work with when they get themselves sorted out, are in a better position to really be the trailblazers of the operational art, kinda like the Germans were IOTL. It would certainly make for an interesting dynamic during the Cold War if the Red Army is perceived somewhat like the Wehrmacht was IOTL (tempered of course by the very steep learning curve from its early depths of incompetence). Much higher military spending on the part of Western countries, I imagine, leading to lower investment in the welfare state.

I think person-based or company-based names (if at all) would be more in line with conventions of the age. Naming everything after an animal isn't really how things are done, even in this day and age when animal names are popular vehicle designations. It wasn't really in fashion in the 1930's and 40's.

The Red Army won’t have as many great victories as OTL (no Uranus or Bagration type victories as of now but obviously subject to change) but won’t have as massive defeats following the initial six months or so after the Axis invasion of the USSR. This is more due to the First and Second Great Purges being more destructive and that Zhukov will be spending much of his time on the Siberian Front combating Japanese and Manchu forces.

There will be higher military spending but a large Marshal Plan post war, less of Europe ravaged and less of Europe under communist hegemony will lead to many countries in Europe developing on beat to OTL if not better/faster.

IOTL, Austro-Hungarian and later Austrian used a simple (descriptive/function) M(year). Sometimes preceded by the manufacturer and often the M(year) was shortened to the final two digits.

Thus, you'd have Skoda Field Howitzer Model 1912 or the Skoda Feldhaubitze M1912 in the original form. Or the Steyr-Mannlicher Cavalry Repeating Carabine Model 1908.

Nicknames were, however, common, though they tended to be descriptive, too. Or used the name of the inventor. I don't offhand, recall any piece of kit getting an animal name. At most, it was the 'ruck-zuruck' for the M98 Mannlicher due to its straight-pull action.

So, I'd imagine a tank would be a M33 Schwerer Panzerwagen. As IOTL, the Austrians had a Steyr M35 Mittlerer Panzerwagen - actually an armoured car (after the Anschluss, it was referred to as the Steyr ADGZ).

Once the Austrian rearmament reaches more advanced stages we’ll come up with the technical and unofficial but common names.

I feel like the Austrian army's ability to make a professional, robust and elite army would still earn it good ahura after the war. They might be considered the "imperial guard" of the axis armies and any small nation that has the ability to form such a professional and elite force in the future could be compared to Austria during ww2.

However I do like and support the idea of the red army getting the same operation/professional glaze the whermacht has in out timeline. For the west both the red army's Size and operational ability will scare them shirtless and might make a much more tense cold war. I feel like alot more former axis military leaders, especially austrian, will not face war crimes court just so the western allies can have these men on there side to give them somewhat an edge aganist the red army.

Austria will have some successes, some minor and some big, but nowhere close to the success of the Nazis OTL. Doing a better job of making the Axis an integrated military alliance, geography, the so-so attitude of Britain and France for the first half of the war, and most countries despising Sverdlov’s USSR are the main reasons for Austrian success.

There will be a Nuremberg Trials equivalent. Perhaps Salzburg or Linz Trials (leaning towards Linz as it is a Sozinat stronghold due to the Olbrechts having such a stranglehold on the local politics). Kaltenbrunner and Schuschnigg are but two of those who will face trial and execution. Social Nationalism may not have been a dire a threat as Nazism but that’s us from TTL knowing that. In Der Kampf universe the Sozinats are the single worst thing to happen to huge swathes of Europe. They won’t get off easy

 

[Sphinx]

will be a Nuremberg Trials

Any chance the Allied war criminals will be tried too?

Or maybe a more effective UN post-war?

 

[Sphinx]

You could look it up yourself. Although I was a tad hyperbolic in using the word despised (disliked would be more accurate), it's not a random unsubstantiated claim that Blitzkrieg was barely used in German professional circles. There's a video by Bernhard Kast on the matter as well if you are interested, most relevant section at 7:53, which has some interesting examples. While occasionally used by the German military, it was little more than a colloquial expression.

Interesting, thank you!

Though I must say even in the video for example there wasn't much mention of Germans actively disliking the term, they just didn't use it. More like they simply didn't care, rather than an active effort to roll its usage back.

Also at the end of the day whatever name is used for anything it's just a made up label, the Germans might well have used Blitzkrieg officially, I doubt it would have any actual impact on anything. Names are just names.

 

[JAK]

Blitzkrieg, and the term, will exist. Germany’s civil war will show some inklings of that and as the restored German Empire resumes its place as a great power it will have much influence and sway, with the term blitzkrieg being adopted as time goes on. Stoßansturmen will be the Austrian version but while the West adopts blitzkrieg as the nickname, the future Bucharest Pact [Warsaw Pact ITTL] will adopt Deep Battle.

The Austrians will officially call them panzers mark 1, 2, 3 etc. but Anglo-French and later American forces will call them ‘Coyote’ or ‘Wolf’ etc as a common classification.

^this exactly, the bottom part.

The Red Army won’t have as many great victories as OTL (no Uranus or Bagration type victories as of now but obviously subject to change) but won’t have as massive defeats following the initial six months or so after the Axis invasion of the USSR. This is more due to the First and Second Great Purges being more destructive and that Zhukov will be spending much of his time on the Siberian Front combating Japanese and Manchu forces.

There will be higher military spending but a large Marshal Plan post war, less of Europe ravaged and less of Europe under communist hegemony will lead to many countries in Europe developing on beat to OTL if not better/faster.

Once the Austrian rearmament reaches more advanced stages we’ll come up with the technical and unofficial but common names.

Austria will have some successes, some minor and some big, but nowhere close to the success of the Nazis OTL. Doing a better job of making the Axis an integrated military alliance, geography, the so-so attitude of Britain and France for the first half of the war, and most countries despising Sverdlov’s USSR are the main reasons for Austrian success.

There will be a Nuremberg Trials equivalent. Perhaps Salzburg or Linz Trials (leaning towards Linz as it is a Sozinat stronghold due to the Olbrechts having such a stranglehold on the local politics). Kaltenbrunner and Schuschnigg are but two of those who will face trial and execution. Social Nationalism may not have been a dire a threat as Nazism but that’s us from TTL knowing that. In Der Kampf universe the Sozinats are the single worst thing to happen to huge swathes of Europe. They won’t get off easy

Bucharest Pact? Intresting spin from OTL. Very interested in seeing this timeliness post war World.

Does that mean we won't see Zhukov on the eastern front kicking Axis ass?

I think a post war, war crimes trial would be fitting in Linz. The reason Nuremberg was chosen as the site in OTLA was because it was considered a Nazi stronghold were they held there annual rallies, Linz would be that place for the Sozinats. Though I can imagine the trial will be smaller then Nuremberg Trials since, obviously Austria is smaller and has less resources to throw at extermination.

Just thought of this as a intresting story to have, maybe you can have some sort of Eichmann kidnapping and trial in the sixties like in OTL but instead of the jews bagging him back to Israel it's Yugoslavia bringing him to Belgrade since yugoslavian is going to feel alot for death and destruction in the TL like what Poland saw OTL.

Anyways great work mate in constructing this World, its very much keeping me intrested in its development 👍 i await the chapter as patiently as one can.

 

[Whiteshore]

There will be a Nuremberg Trials equivalent. Perhaps Salzburg or Linz Trials (leaning towards Linz as it is a Sozinat stronghold due to the Olbrechts having such a stranglehold on the local politics). Kaltenbrunner and Schuschnigg are but two of those who will face trial and execution. Social Nationalism may not have been a dire a threat as Nazism but that’s us from TTL knowing that. In Der Kampf universe the Sozinats are the single worst thing to happen to huge swathes of Europe. They won’t get off easy

I think a post war, war crimes trial would be fitting in Linz. The reason Nuremberg was chosen as the site in OTLA was because it was considered a Nazi stronghold were they held there annual rallies, Linz would be that place for the Sozinats. Though I can imagine the trial will be smaller then Nuremberg Trials since, obviously Austria is smaller and has less resources to throw at extermination.

Speakign of war crimes tribunals, what could be interesting could be TTL's Italian war crimes tribunals as there wasn't exactly an Italian equivalent to Nuremberg or the Tokyo Tribunal in our timeline.

 

[Ironshark]

I know this is way too early but what would it look like In a " Austrian Victory timeline" set in TTL?
it's too small to be a cold War type enemy for the west but too large to just stay together yet small enought it just might survive

 

[Tanner151]

Next update will be released no later [and probably on the day of] Monday 5/06/2024 by 11:59pm. The big chunk I've been fiddling with is done, now just need to add two sections then it's done.

Any chance the Allied war criminals will be tried too?

Or maybe a more effective UN post-war?

There might be one or two that get the treatment, but will be similar to OTL. The UN will be similar to OTL. NATO will be larger and stronger though. And there will probably be a PATO [Pacific Alliance Treaty Organization] to counter communism in SE Asia/East Asia and the Pacific.

Bucharest Pact? Intresting spin from OTL. Very interested in seeing this timeliness post war World.

Does that mean we won't see Zhukov on the eastern front kicking Axis ass?

I think a post war, war crimes trial would be fitting in Linz. The reason Nuremberg was chosen as the site in OTLA was because it was considered a Nazi stronghold were they held there annual rallies, Linz would be that place for the Sozinats. Though I can imagine the trial will be smaller then Nuremberg Trials since, obviously Austria is smaller and has less resources to throw at extermination.

Just thought of this as a intresting story to have, maybe you can have some sort of Eichmann kidnapping and trial in the sixties like in OTL but instead of the jews bagging him back to Israel it's Yugoslavia bringing him to Belgrade since yugoslavian is going to feel alot for death and destruction in the TL like what Poland saw OTL.

Anyways great work mate in constructing this World, its very much keeping me intrested in its development 👍 i await the chapter as patiently as one can.

I've wondered what I'll do once I finish the books for Der Kampf. As of now there are six planned. And they end mid-1940s. Crazy to think I'm already done with a third of it [1 book awaiting publication and another awaiting to be edited]. Might do an in-depth timeline in the style of a history book, or a TLIAW or something else, not sure. Blue Skies in Camelot is a huge influence in terms of how to write a timeline so that's the ideal path I would like to take.

I will say that I hope to write a book set in 1960s Austria at the height of the Cold War that'll include, among other things, a Democratic Ronald Reagan as the disgruntled Ambassador to Austria, a divided Austrian government clogged with infighting dealing with a recession all the while a neo-Sozinat cell tries to murder the chancellor. The book's WIP is 'Iron Chancellor'

Zhukov might there for a bit, but I'm thinking Sverdlov will want Zhukov far from the Russian heartland due to his 'association' with Stalin. Sverdlov's paranoia is going to be really bad from here on out. Another way to 'nerf' the USSR in the leadup to WW2.

Possibly. I'm not even a 100% sure there will even be a Yugoslavia post-war. It'll be so devastated with some being pro-Axis, others pro-Allied, and even others pro-neutral or pro-Comintern that it might simply to wipe the slate clean and create smaller countries in it for regional stability.

I appreciate it! glad I've kept the world interesting and engaging.

Speakign of war crimes tribunals, what could be interesting could be TTL's Italian war crimes tribunals as there wasn't exactly an Italian equivalent to Nuremberg or the Tokyo Tribunal in our timeline.

There will be one for the Italians for sure. Linz Trials for the Sozinats, Tokyo Trials for the Japanese, perhaps the Rome Trials for the Italians unless another city in Italy is more important to Italian fascism.

I know this is way too early but what would it look like In a " Austrian Victory timeline" set in TTL?
it's too small to be a cold War type enemy for the west but too large to just stay together yet small enought it just might survive

Hmm. I think I once jokingly mentioned a Wolfenstein-type Austrian victory where they use Judeo-Serbian science to create superweapons but that was years ago I believe. An Austrian victory would be survival with some regional gains and influence. With a stronger Allied Nations and still aggressive USSR, that'll be very hard to do w/o other PoDs to aid them. Though there will be armchair generals or neo-Sozinats in-universe who will say 'Austria could have won if this or that happened.'

 

[Whiteshore]

There will be one for the Italians for sure. Linz Trials for the Sozinats, Tokyo Trials for the Japanese, perhaps the Rome Trials for the Italians unless another city in Italy is more important to Italian fascism.

May I suggest the Milan Trials due to how Milan was where the forerunner of the PNF was founded in the Fasci Italiani di Combattimento.

 

[Tanner151]

I like that.

 

[JAK]

Got ant ideas on who's gonna be the soviet unions big daddy on the eastern front instead of Zhukov?

Your 1960s story with Ronald Reagan sounds quite intresting, I would defo make it once you wrapped up Der Kampf 👍

You do make a good point about yugoslavia after ww2. Its gonna be a hot mess even long after ww2. I could still see Tito as being in charge of maybe Serbia since his partisans would of helped kicked the Axis out of the balkans and liberate sozinat concentration camps so the people there would see him as there great liberator.

I also wonder how prevalent Sozinat supporters are gonna be post war? Will be see a sizable neo sozinat population in post war Austria (former party and paramilitaries memebers) talking about the good old days with hitler and how he did nothing wrong.

 

[Sphinx]

Got ant ideas on who's gonna be the soviet unions big daddy on the eastern front instead of Zhukov?

Surely the Red Napoleon, Tukhachevsky?

 

[JAK]

Surely the Red Napoleon, Tukhachevsky?

Oh yh forgot about the old marshal, he would be a pretty good soviet commander aganist the Axis as long Sverdlov doesn't purge Tukhachevsky like Stalin did in OTL.

 

[MonarchistCanuck]

Wasn't Tukhachevsky purged OTL because he was accused of being a Trotskyist?

 

[Sphinx]

Wasn't Tukhachevsky purged OTL because he was accused of being a Trotskyist?

I assumed he wouldn't be purged ITTL.

 

[MonarchistCanuck]

I assumed he wouldn't be purged ITTL.

Depends on his politics and what he does during Trotsky's attempted coup. Even if doesn't side with Trotsky, we've been told Sverdlov is only going to become increasingly paranoid, just being associated with Trotsky could see him put on a list. Mind you I'm far from an expert on the USSR and its internal politics, thus is just a guess

 

[athgtq16129]

Is there a world map of this timeline?