Denmark-Norway's survivability?

[KittyKat]

This is my first post and i hope its worded okay, i also hope the question has not been asked before. I searched but couldnt find anything.

So my question is this, If denmark-norway somehow skirted by the napoleonic wars unscathed could it survive as a state? If so, i would like to know how it would manage that.

 

[Falastur]

Denmark would do very well not to get drawn into the Napoleonic Wars. It tried to stay neutral for much of the era, and what happened was it had Napoleon invade Jutland and the UK shell Copenhagen and steal their fleet because the naval battles made neutral navies irresistible targets for countries who needed a quick boost. France lost its navy at Trafalgar in 1805, so it simply marched into a neutral country (Denmark) to take their navy and start again, the UK felt it had to respond and got to the fleet first. In Europe during the Napoleonic Wars there really was no neutral. Everyone got invaded or had to invade someone at some point.

However, as for survivability...it's possible, but the weight of time is against them. They were declining and Sweden wanted any chance to steal Norway from Denmark. It would essentially have to pursue a course of action which forced Sweden to constantly be its ally so Sweden had no due cause to ask for Norway. Even then I get the feeling that at some point it would come down to a fight for control.

 

[Axeman]

You would probalby need a case in which Denmark was closer in line with Russia, meaning you have to drive Sweden towards France and keep Britain receptive towards Denmark.

The best thing would probably be France invades Denmark outright and Russia gets into a war with Sweden over one reason or another or maybe just a longer Northern War.

With Russia distracting Sweden you can have Britain run to the rescue of Denmark and in the post war settlement they could get all of Holstein, maybe Parts of southern Sweden near Goteborg, and would be viewed as another 2nd rate power used to keep Europe in balance.

 

[RGB]

You would probalby need a case in which Denmark was closer in line with Russia, meaning you have to drive Sweden towards France and keep Britain receptive towards Denmark.

A Russian alliance (more active than IRL) could serve it well, actually, provided Russia stays aligned to Britain. For one thing, it opens up a possibility of keeping their navy, which was a major factor in their losing a lot of their territorial ambitions later.

Another possiblity is Napoleonic victory on the sea, and Russia staying in the continental system as a result, ergo Denmark benefits from both of their traditional allies esp. vs. Sweden. Still might've lost the navy though when the British come for a rematch.

 

[Oddball]

Denmark would do very well not to get drawn into the Napoleonic Wars. It tried to stay neutral for much of the era,

True, D-N tried to remain neutral. But the great Powers would not let us.

and what happened was it had Napoleon invade Jutland

When was this???

 

[Oddball]

You would probalby need a case in which Denmark was closer in line with Russia, meaning you have to drive Sweden towards France and keep Britain receptive towards Denmark.

A Russian alliance (more active than IRL) could serve it well, actually, provided Russia stays aligned to Britain. For one thing, it opens up a possibility of keeping their navy, which was a major factor in their losing a lot of their territorial ambitions later.

IMHO you both have this wrong.

D-N WERE a staunch Russian allied in this periode. The Eternal Alliance was agreed on in 1773 and lasted until 1809 when Sweeden ceded Finland to Russia.

It was this alliance that forced D-N to the actions that eventualy made the British attach Copenhagen in 1801 and 1807.

I must admit that having D-N a even closer ally to Russia in this periode, would border a case of annexation, atleast regarding military and foreign policy.

 

[Oddball]

The best thing would probably be France invades Denmark outright and Russia gets into a war with Sweden over one reason or another or maybe just a longer Northern War.

Partly, yes.

With hindsight it is easy to stipulate that D-N would have benefited from an French attack. That is if Britain still win.

With D-N in the British camp it is rather hard to say what Sweden will do. Russia will attack her anyway, and offer her Norway as a compensation for Finland. But with D-N in the British camp, an aquisition is not guarantied.

 

[Oddball]

However, as for survivability...it's possible, but the weight of time is against them. They were declining and Sweden wanted any chance to steal Norway from Denmark. It would essentially have to pursue a course of action which forced Sweden to constantly be its ally so Sweden had no due cause to ask for Norway. Even then I get the feeling that at some point it would come down to a fight for control.

As long as the Napoleonic Wars continues, yes.

But if you get past Wienna, I think the struggel for Norway will fade away.

Without isolation of Norway during the Napoleonics with all second hand results from that, there should be very little nationalistic forces in Norway in 1815. OTOH, what happens later as nationalism develops in Europe is hard to say.