Denmark a Great Power?

[123456789blaaa]

Would it be possible for Denmark to unify Germany? Or at the very least, gain significant enough amounts of German land to become a Great Power? The Kings of Denmark OTL already had German land in Holstein. Could they gain more? What stopped them OTL?

 

[Lalli]

Why Denmark would unite Germany? Danes speak Danish not German. And it would be impossible for them anyway. More plausible way to be great power is keep Kalmar Union in existence or at least keep Norway.

 

[123456789blaaa]

Why Denmark would unite Germany? Danes speak Danish not German. And it would be impossible for them anyway. More plausible way to be great power is keep Kalmar Union in existence or at least keep Norway.

I don't think linguistic nationalism is an inevitable force. Could you make an argument as to why it's impossible instead of simply asserting it?

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Why Denmark would unite Germany? Danes speak Danish not German. And it would be impossible for them anyway. More plausible way to be great power is keep Kalmar Union in existence or at least keep Norway.

Integrate Norway into Denmark, keep Sweden as part of a personal union. Stay Catholic. One day, have the king only have a daughter. He has no sons, brothers, 1st cousins, or 2nd cousins in a royal line (I mean 2nd cousin from the non royal side who cares?). Danish king declares his daughter heir. She finds an Austrian Archduke smoking hot. King is like "well, slightly less powerful and closer is a bit preferred, but if she's going to marry far, the most powerful Catholic German family isn't bad." Boom, next generation you wanked Denmark.

 

[profxyz]

The problem with Denmark re: Germany was that its control of the Sound Toll (and its attempts to exploit said control) was highly unpopular with North German trading cities, who would then act in concert with other interested powers (Dutch Republic, England) to break Denmark's control.

I suppose a potential way for Denmark to begin a process of German unification was for Christian IV to achieve more success in the Thirty Years' War and become the defender of North German Protestantism in the same way that Gustavus Adolphus had. Then, perhaps a process of Germanification (or maybe a greater emphasis on religious affinity rather than ethnicity) could see Denmark being accepted as a natural leader of a future North German Union.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I don't think linguistic nationalism is an inevitable force. Could you make an argument as to why it's impossible instead of simply asserting it?

Let's see our biggest economic powerhouses of multi-ethnic European countries.

England/Normandy (the Anvegin Empire)... blew up by John's incompetence. He had 22% more funds than Richard and didn't have a Crusade to spend money on.

Kalmar Union Denmark... blew up because the Swedes wanted more power.

Austira-Hungary... blew up be revolutions. Before you say the allies dismembered it on purpose, the Slovakians were already having an ethnic revolt and two others were actively going on and some others were discontent.

Russia... most of it is intact, but the "multiethnic" periphery territory blew up when the Soviet Union fell.

Venice (not Venice proper, the empire they had in the 1500s was multiethnic)... blew up. Ok, the Ottomans helped that one a bit.

Mughal Indians had a nice multiethnic state... hey that's not European.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

The problem with Denmark re: Germany was that its control of the Sound Toll (and its attempts to exact said control) was highly unpopular with North German trading cities, who would then act in concert with other interested powers (Dutch Republic, England) to break Denmark's control.

I suppose a potential way for Denmark to begin a process of German unification was for Christian IV to achieve more success in the Thirty Years' War and become the defender of North German Protestantism in the same way that Gustavus Adolphus had. Then, perhaps a process of Germanification (or maybe a greater emphasis on religious affinity rather than ethnicity) could see Denmark being accepted as a natural leader of a future North German Union.

Would my idea of the Kalmar Union staying Catholic and marrying their way into the HRE work? It sounds solid.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

I forgot Greater Romania blew up too leaving behind a more homogenous state

 

[123456789blaaa]

Let's see our biggest economic powerhouses of multi-ethnic European countries.

England/Normandy (the Anvegin Empire)... blew up by John's incompetence. He had 22% more funds than Richard and didn't have a Crusade to spend money on.

Kalmar Union Denmark... blew up because the Swedes wanted more power.

Austira-Hungary... blew up be revolutions. Before you say the allies dismembered it on purpose, the Slovakians were already having an ethnic revolt and two others were actively going on and some others were discontent.

Russia... most of it is intact, but the "multiethnic" periphery territory blew up when the Soviet Union fell.

Venice (not Venice proper, the empire they had in the 1500s was multiethnic)... blew up. Ok, the Ottomans helped that one a bit.

Mughal Indians had a nice multiethnic state... hey that's not European.

Well I didn't say it had to remain a Great Power until the modern day. Plenty of those states had histories that lasted for centuries. In any case, the argument of whether European multi-ethnic states can survive till the modern day is a whole other debate. I don't want to get into the specific historical reasons why all those states split (at very different dates BTW).

 

[Alex Zetsu]

OK, fine, what do you think about my Catholic Kalmar Union suggestion? Within 3 generations after that marriage, I can imagine super Denmark-Norway-Sweden-Germany

 

[profxyz]

Would my idea of the Kalmar Union staying Catholic and marrying their way into the HRE work? It sounds solid.

Well, I find it highly unlikely that such a Union would immediately lead to a centralized government. Historically, Unions were often controversial, with nobles in both countries afraid of being 'sidelined'. More likely that a Spain-Austria arrangement would be worked out: the Queen can remain ruler of the Kalmar Union, but after that the throne maybe goes to a relative or something.

One thing to note as well that a super HRE + Kalmar would immediately threaten the interests of almost everybody in Northern Europe... so it's likely that France, England, Poland, Russia etc. would redouble their efforts to eject Austria as HRE in such a case.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Austira-Hungary... blew up be revolutions. Before you say the allies dismembered it on purpose, the Slovakians were already having an ethnic revolt and two others were actively going on and some others were discontent.

After fighting a total war for more than four years and having its central government increasingly being delegitimized by its own allies. That's not so much an argument for the inherent inviability of a multiethnic state, rather just a reaffirmation that they can't endure extreme burdens the same way a nation state can.

edit: or rather that they have less impetus to reform if the burden does cause a collapse.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Well, I find it highly unlikely that such a Union would immediately lead to a centralized government. Historically, Unions were often controversial, with nobles in both countries afraid of being 'sidelined' in the deal. More likely that a Spain-Austria arrangement would be worked out: the Queen can remain ruler of the Kalmar Union, but after that the throne maybe goes to a relative or something.

But Hungary went into the Hapsburg Union willingly. You're right the most likely outcome is that a Spain-Austria arrangement works out, but an Austria-Hungary one where the throne are united works too. OK, at this time Austria was an Arch Duchy, but it had Imperial attachments with the HRE with it. My point being is that it's possible to get a union. If we butterfly Henry VIII divorce, England and Austria might end up as compatible allies. If those two stay friendly, no one would be stupid enough to touch the Kalmar-Super HRE block unless it has internal problems.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Denmark unifying Germany is like Bohemia unifying Germany. At least ethnically. Not that it mattered too much for the Danish kings since they already ruled over many Germans in Schleswig-Holstein.

If Denmark isn't unifying Germany (let's be honest, that's just Germany with some islands and Oresund), it can compensate by getting a huge chunk of northern Germany (i.e. doing really well during the 30YW), exploiting the Sound Dues for everything its worth, more activities in the Baltic (get back Estonia and Gotland or more?), and a bigger colonial empire. Grab some more sugar islands, get into the slave trade and stake a claim on a lot of Africa, more activities in India and maybe even the East Indies, etc.

Denmark also has the advantage of not having to deal with Russia next door as Sweden did, unless they go the Estonia route.

 

[profxyz]

But Hungary went into the Hapsburg Union willingly. You're right the most likely outcome is that a Spain-Austria arrangement works out, but an Austria-Hungary one where the throne are united works too. OK, at this time Austria was an Arch Duchy, but it had Imperial attachments with the HRE with it. My point being is that it's possible to get a union

Well Hungarian nobles didn't have a lot of choice, considering the imminent threat of the Ottoman Turks: also the Hungarians were united with Austria for like 150 years before they finally came anywhere close to matching Austrian power (and almost immediately some of them attempted to fight for independence in Rakoczi's war).

Lasting Unions between more-or-less equals are possible - Castile and Aragon comes to mind - but they do require, among other things, an absence of international opposition to the Union as well as some convergence (or at least non-opposition) of interests. Kalmar-Austria has the potential to rouse continent-wide opposition similar to France-Spain in 1700, and the national interests of Kalmar v Austria are at cross-purposes with regards to the Sound Toll. Yes it could happen, but I don't see it as a particularly likely way to unify Germany.

 

[123456789blaaa]

OK, fine, what do you think about my Catholic Kalmar Union suggestion? Within 3 generations after that marriage, I can imagine super Denmark-Norway-Sweden-Germany

The problem with the OTL Kalmar Union was that Sweden and Denmark-Norway had inherent conflicting interests (this also fueled Norwegian separatism in the 19th c under Sweden). I'm not really informed on this area of history but I'd think that the addition of a far away, large, and distinct like Austria would exacerbate this. New territory also comes with new obligations after all. Did Denmark OTL indicate any interest towards an Austrian marriage?

Denmark unifying Germany is like Bohemia unifying Germany. At least ethnically. Not that it mattered too much for the Danish kings since they already ruled over many Germans in Schleswig-Holstein.

If Denmark isn't unifying Germany (let's be honest, that's just Germany with some islands and Oresund), it can compensate by getting a huge chunk of northern Germany (i.e. doing really well during the 30YW), exploiting the Sound Dues for everything its worth, more activities in the Baltic (get back Estonia and Gotland or more?), and a bigger colonial empire. Grab some more sugar islands, get into the slave trade and stake a claim on a lot of Africa, more activities in India and maybe even the East Indies, etc.

Denmark also has the advantage of not having to deal with Russia next door as Sweden did, unless they go the Estonia route.

Did Denmark have the capabilities to do better in the 30 years war? What were their aims? From Wikipedia, I can only glean that the current King at he time failed miserably.

I'm wary of colonialism. A lot of the time, it wasn't very profitable for the nation as a whole and required significant maritime interest. I feel like a bigger colonial empire would be a possible result of success in Europe, not a path to success in and of itself.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Well Hungarian nobles didn't have a lot of choice, considering the imminent threat of the Ottoman Turks: also the Hungarians were united with Austria for like 150 years before they finally came anywhere close to matching Austrian power (and almost immediately some of them attempted to fight for independence in Rakoczi's war).

Lasting Unions between more-or-less equals are possible - Castile and Aragon comes to mind - but they do require, among other things, an absence of international opposition to the Union as well as some convergence (or at least non-opposition) of interests. Kalmar-Austria has the potential to rouse continent-wide opposition similar to France-Spain in 1700, and the national interests of Kalmar v Austria are at cross-purposes with regards to the Sound Toll. Yes it could happen, but I don't see it as a particularly likely way to unify Germany.

If Austria and England are both Catholic and have some marriage tires, they might have an alliance. For all that's been said about OTL England/Britain wanting to avoid a continental superpower, there were a few exceptions. George II for example would have absolutely loved a Hapsburg Hegemon.

Austria could then try to appeal to honor on the English monarch with those marriage ties and past treaties and maybe sweeten the deal by treating English merchants like Danish ones in the Sound Toll. I seriously doubt a France-Poland coalition would want to mess with England allied with the Kalmar-Austria. Our POD would be in the 1300s since we're keeping Kalmar alive and stable, so lots of things could have happened.

The bigger problem is getting internal interests. So now we have a Kalmar Queen and Austrian Holy Roman Emperor, with both trying to get their... say 15 year old son (who speaks German, Danish, and Hungarian) to inherit both. England is backing them. OK... now what to do with the Sound Toll? Kalmar wants regulation and the Germans want loose traffic there. How do we get interests to align?

 

[Alex Zetsu]

The problem with the OTL Kalmar Union was that Sweden and Denmark-Norway had inherent conflicting interests (this also fueled Norwegian separatism in the 19th c under Sweden). I'm not really informed on this area of history but I'd think that the addition of a far away, large, and distinct like Austria would exacerbate this. New territory also comes with new obligations after all. Did Denmark OTL indicate any interest towards an Austrian marriage?

After the reformation... uh no they didn't have any interest in Austria. Even when Austria was a "not bugging us catholic" instead of "enemy Catholic" they showed no interest

I shoehorned this in since you want them to unify Germany. Please note the king probably would prefer his daughter marry a Danish nobleman. But if it has to be a far away marriage and they are a Catholic family, the most prestigious Catholic family is a fine match too. After the suggested marriage, I could imagine the Holy Roman Empire becoming consolidated like OTL Imperial Germany within 3-3.5 generations, if they unite the crowns (OTL and TTL Austria plus Hungary) instead of passing off to a relative (OTL Austria and Spain). Please note the latter is more probable, but the less likely option is needed for your goal. I didn't say this is the most likely sequence of events, but I think it meets your OP of Denmark being a Great Power and unifying Germany.

Now to get the competing interests out of the way... I guess after the marriage the Imperials need to offer local concessions to the Swedish nobles. Some bribes, some autonomy from Copenhagen. Adding Austria with that whole thing does exacerbate this, but giving aristocracy privileges should be a good antidote to stopping separatism. The treasury's expenses into Sweden might drop... and the taxes might drop by 70% too.

 

[Jürgen]

Honestly to keep the Kalmar Union together, keep Christian Ii from committing the Stockholm Bloodbath. This would have let him stay king of Denmark and have kept the Danish nobility from rebelling against him.

Next let him convert to Lutheranism, this would gave given him access to vast amount of land he could use to bribe the nobility and centralize power. Next because he lived as long as he did, we would see a long stable rule after this. Next send his heir to Stockholm as administrator and when Christian Ii dies make his heir make a land grap against the Livonian Order, it doesn't matter whether it succeeds, but it will keep The Swedes happy. Of we mix these things we will a lifetime without new Swedish revolts, which will make potential new revolts less popular.

So the KU may go into the 17th century as a unified and somewhat centralized state, which will make it a major player in that century.