Democratic Party without Solid South by 40 acres and mule implemented

octoberman

Banned
What if Radical Republicans got what they wanted and gave 40 acres and mule to former slaves along with capital and equipment to farm. Andrew Johnson never becomes President. Radical Republicans successfully redistribute planter lands among former slaves. This prevents the Solid South from forming as former slaves are powerful enough to avoid disenfranchisement. It creates a Southern bloc for the Republican party.

How will Democratic Party be without the Solid South ?
 

sampleswift

octoberman said:
What if Radical Republicans got what they wanted and gave 40 acres and mule to former slaves along with capital and equipment to farm. Andrew Johnson never becomes President. Radical Republicans successfully redistribute planter lands among former slaves. This prevents the Solid South from forming as former slaves are powerful enough to avoid disenfranchisement. It creates a Southern bloc for the Republican party.

How will Democratic Party be without the Solid South ?
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Likely the Democratic Party will be completely crippled at least on the Presidential level unless Republicans do a major screw-up, perhaps economically? I really see the Democrats' only chance being after an economic panic/depression (similar to the rise of the New Deal Democrats/FDR).
 
DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

Democrats would have to make an effort to compete for the Freedman vote if they had any hopes whatsoever, in this case. Which means they're going to get pulled to the breaing point between their Redeemer, Bourbon, urban immigrant and agricultural wings.

Assuming that they manage to survive somewhat intact, their best bet would be to lean into the radicalism of that era and try to build alliances and combined tickets with the radical third parties of that era (Greenbacks, Populists, etc). If they do this, you could potentially see something vaguely akin to the New Deal coalition coming together in the 1890s and giving the Dems a real chance of coming out of their years in the wilderness.

Though its just as likely that the Democratic Party as we know it collapses into a variety of successor parties in the 1860s and 1870s before a new Farm-Labor party reforges during that same period. Though that would be an interesting scenerio as the Redeemer types and Bourbons wouldn't exactly be welcome in such an organization for obvious reasons.
 

octoberman

Banned
DanMcCollum said:
Though its just as likely that the Democratic Party as we know it collapses into a variety of successor parties in the 1860s and 1870s
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Wouldn't they survive by remaining dominant in the southern states with low slave population ?
 
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DanMcCollum

DanMcCollum

octoberman said:
Wouldn't they survive by remaining dominant in the southern states with low slave population ?
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Possibly some remnants would - but one cannot have a national party that relies on dominanting three or four states in a single region. One of the reasons, during this era, that you'd see weak parties holding on in states which were dominanted by the opposition, was there was still the chance ot federal patronage. A Republican in, say, Alabama was unlikely to win office. But by being a loyal member of the GOP, they could still hope to attain federal appointment to important jobs, such as postmaster. If the Democracy had no hope of attaining the Presidency, or even major representation in Congress, than those same hopes are gone - for any even mildly ambitious political figure, its better to jump ship and find a new party which better reflects their goals and offers the potential to gain influence.

So if the Democrats start dropping below a certain threshold of competitive state parties, or showings in national elections, the rats are going to start fleeing the sinking ship.
 

Mikestone8

sampleswift said:
Likely the Democratic Party will be completely crippled at least on the Presidential level unless Republicans do a major screw-up, perhaps economically? I really see the Democrats' only chance being after an economic panic/depression (similar to the rise of the New Deal Democrats/FDR).
Click to expand...
sampleswift said:
Likely the Democratic Party will be completely crippled at least on the Presidential level unless Republicans do a major screw-up, perhaps economically? I really see the Democrats' only chance being after an economic panic/depression (similar to the rise of the New Deal Democrats/FDR).
Click to expand...

Of course, if the Dems collapse, leaving the Reps as the only party standing, the latter will soon split into radical and conservative factions, with the latter absorbing what's left of the Democratic Party and forming a new two-party system.

BTW how does getting rid of Andrew Johnson lead to 40 acres and a mule? When Thaddeus Stevens introduced a bill to that effect, it got all of 37 votes in the HoR - barely a fourth of the Republican membership. Needless to say all Democrats were opposed, so the measure was never aven close to adoption, regardless off who was POTUS.
 

octoberman

Banned
Mikestone8 said:
Of course, if the Dems collapse, leaving the Reps as the only party standing, the latter will soon split into radical and conservative factions, with the latter absorbing what's left of the Democratic Party and forming a new two-party system
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How would the regions be split between them
 

octoberman

Banned
Mikestone8 said:
Well, the Conservative wing will likely get most of the South. OTOH the split doesn't have to be along sectional lines. That between Democrats and Whigs wasn't.
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Wouldn't the domination of the South by a single party be prevented racial divisions?
 
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octoberman

Banned
Mikestone8 said:
It wasn't OTL. And assumingg that northern voters (9as OTL) get tired of it all and start to walk away, that could still happen.
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In OTL racial divisions didn't reflect in elections because African Americans were deprived of their right to vote by the Jim crow laws
 

Mikestone8

octoberman said:
In OTL racial divisions didn't reflect in elections because African Americans were deprived of their right to vote by the Jim crow laws
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Actually they were deprived of it by extra-legal methods well before the Jim Crow laws. And even if 40 acres and a mule were somehow adopted (*very* unlikely) I don't see how it would prevent this.
 

octoberman

Banned
Mikestone8 said:
Actually they were deprived of it by extra-legal methods well before the Jim Crow laws. And even if 40 acres and a mule were somehow adopted (*very* unlikely) I don't see how it would prevent this.
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African Americans would have the means to protect themselves
 

Zireael

octoberman said:
That would give money which provides political power
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You need large amounts of money to have political power. 40 acres isn't gonna give you much money after you use it to feed yourself and your family.

Second, just like other posters I bet some sort of limitations will be invented to prevent African Americans from voting
 
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