DBWI: What if Japan had won the War of 1905?

srv fan

As we all know, Russia crushed the Japs in 1905. The crucial battle of the Tsushima Straits was the turning point, where the Russian Baltic fleet destroyed the Japanese fleet led by some Togo figure. This led to further Russian advances and finally, Japan was forced to recognize Russian supremacy in the Northern Far East and give up trade concessions. What would the East look like if Japan had managed to establish itself as a Great Power and defeat a major European nation like Russia?
 

The Sandman

Banned
Oddly enough, we probably wouldn't have seen Japan hold on to its gains in Korea, Manchuria, and Eastern Siberia after the Russian Civil War. Our Japan, not taken seriously by other nations, had nothing to lose.
 

Darkest

Banned
It could have been exactly the chastising the Russians needed to curb their expansionistic policies, and getting consumed in a war with China when the Great War broke out. A Russian loss leading a greater Russian victory? Such things have happened before.

Then again, this might give the populace enough fervor to launch its revolution, and start the RCW earlier.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
If the Czar had been humiliated by a defeat at Japanese hands (or all people) perhaps the Russian monarchy wouldn't have survived the Russian Civil War. I know such a scenario seems absurd, but you never know...
 

The Sandman

Banned
Yes, but it only "survived" the Civil War because, ironically enough, the Japanese took them in when they occupied the Russian Far East during said war. Despite what the Romanovs may claim from their exile in Harbin, they have few real supporters in the modern Soviet Empire.
 

Wendell

One wonders if the German Pacific would have still gone to the U.S. during (and formally, after) the Great War in a TL where Japan is regarded as a Power. As one recalls, the Japanese did snatch Tsingtao, but they might have taken more.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Yes, but I would think that the Shandong Peninsula was a better deal than the paltry islands in the Pacific, considering the vital strategic role it played in the Third Sino-Japanese War of 1927.
 

Wendell

The Sandman said:
Yes, but I would think that the Shandong Peninsula was a better deal than the paltry islands in the Pacific, considering the vital strategic role it played in the Third Sino-Japanese War of 1927.
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This is quite true. To this day, I contend that the Russians made a huge mistake by entering that conflict.
 

The Sandman

Banned
If by huge you mean "attempted to regain Manchuria and Sakhalin and ended up losing the entire Transbaikal", I'd definitely have to agree with you. One of those classic examples of where both sides assumed that the other side hadn't significantly changed their tactics, and planned accordingly. Of course, the Japanese turned out to be right, which is probably why they won.
 

Wendell

The Sandman said:
If by huge you mean "attempted to regain Manchuria and Sakhalin and ended up losing the entire Transbaikal", I'd definitely have to agree with you. One of those classic examples of where both sides assumed that the other side hadn't significantly changed their tactics, and planned accordingly. Of course, the Japanese turned out to be right, which is probably why they won.
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This is true, but surely the fact that Poland was fighting the Russians on the other side certainly impacted things.
 

The Sandman

Banned
And the Finns, plus the Ukrainian Revolt and the Central Asian Troubles. I suspect that part of why the Russians faced such disaster in the 1910s and 20s is that they used their "glorious victory" over Japan in 1905 to mask the enormous social problems they were facing. A humiliating defeat at the hands of Asians before the collapse might have been enough to force even Nicholas II to attempt some small reforms; historically, of course, it just exacerbated the Russian collapse.

I will admit a certain fondness for Siberia, though; it may have only survived for a decade, but it had possibilities before the Soviets overran it.
 

Wendell

The Sandman said:
And the Finns, plus the Ukrainian Revolt and the Central Asian Troubles. I suspect that part of why the Russians faced such disaster in the 1910s and 20s is that they used their "glorious victory" over Japan in 1905 to mask the enormous social problems they were facing. A humiliating defeat at the hands of Asians before the collapse might have been enough to force even Nicholas II to attempt some small reforms; historically, of course, it just exacerbated the Russian collapse.

I will admit a certain fondness for Siberia, though; it may have only survived for a decade, but it had possibilities before the Soviets overran it.
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This is true. Consider also, what might have happned if Russia had stayed Communist when the Germans launched that war in 1938.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Well, Poland might have ended up ruined and Communist after being used as the battleground du jour by the Germans and the Russians for four years, instead of just in ruins.

Of course, the decision of the Russians to start a civil war during a German invasion worked as well in 1938 as it did in 1917...

They probably only kept the "Soviet Empire" name because it gave them semi-legitimate claims on the Baltic states and the Ukraine, not that those did them much good.
 

marxist?_idontthinkso

ToSANDMAN

Hey ive seen ur name on nearly every forum you seem like a very smart and an incredibly informed individual...i need someone to corespond with for my alternate history elective in college and my pick would be you...if you would just answer a few emailed questions now and then would make my day.

PS: Check out my forum i need some help on the info...Before 1900_"The Cigar Battle"
 

Chaoticar

[U said:
srv[/u] fan]As we all know, Russia crushed the Japs in 1905. The crucial battle of the Tsushima Straits was the turning point, where the Russian Baltic fleet destroyed the Japanese fleet led by some Togo figure. This led to further Russian advances and finally, Japan was forced to recognize Russian supremacy in the Northern Far East and give up trade concessions. What would the East look like if Japan had managed to establish itself as a Great Power and defeat a major European nation like Russia?
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Check a history book for the answer. Why? In our universe the Japanese fleet under Admiral Heihachiro Togo destroyed the Russian fleet under Admiral Zinovi Petrovich Rozhdestvenski. The Treaty of Portsmouth gave Japan rights to Manchuria and Sakhalin. BTW Japan did establish itself as a great power and went on to dominate part of Asia for a time.
 

srv fan

Check a history book for the answer. Why? In our universe the Japanese fleet under Admiral Heihachiro Togo destroyed the Russian fleet under Admiral Zinovi Petrovich Rozhdestvenski. The Treaty of Portsmouth gave Japan rights to Manchuria and Sakhalin. BTW Japan did establish itself as a great power and went on to dominate part of Asia for a time.
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NO REALLY?!!!!!

I don't think you know the lingo of this forum so heres a quick primer. DBWI stands for "double blind what if." The point of a DBWI is to explore what the assumed outcome of an event would be as compared to how it really occured. For this DBWI, the task would be to explore how people of the time would consider the outcome of a OTL real world event. People from 1905 would likely think that even if the Japanese won, the Russians would regain their possessions- no non-European power had beaten the Europeans in a long time, so the idea of Japan becoming more powerful than Russia was ludicrous to people. All the banter in this thread is essentially people playacting the supposed opinions of these 1905 people.

Obviously, we all know that in real life (OTL) the Japanese won.
 
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