DBWI: What if General Napoleon Bonaparte hadn't been killed in the Siege of Toulon?
- Thread starter GriffinFTW
- Start date
Spent considerable time trying to avoid the guillotine, I imagine, as any prominent French person would around that time.
And then two years later, in 1816, Hoche fucked up, completely, the war with the pro-Prussian German states and subsequently had to leave town after the Bourbons were restored to the throne a few years after that.....could General Bonaparte have done any better? We'll never know, perhaps.
Well, butterflies abound and something could happen to Lazare. Again, not very likely... I don't know why, but big historical figures such as him tend to live enough to see their goals accomplished and may even survive the harshest campaigns, as strange as it is.
True, true: just look at William Walker in the Confederate States, for example: first a General who survived some of the toughest battles of the Tennessee front, then the President of same nation who bought off Cuba from the Spanish, and managed to institute just enough reforms to keep the economy alive for a while and encourage the expansion of industry while not pissing off the planters, etc.....all before dying in office of dengue fever in 1876. The same could also be said of Robert T. Lincoln, Jr. in the U.S. (president from 1933-46) ; although he died before he could complete his fourth term, his "Square Deal" initiatives did so much to help the American working class that it would boggle the mind(Hell, my grandparents in Kansas and Nebraska are still highly thankful for Public Security and the National Farm Aid program to this day, and my paternal grandparents are both conservatives at that.)
OOC: In this world, the C.S.A., by some rather good luck, managed to survive a good 45 years or so before collapsing, being taken over by the U.S., and readmitted to the Union just in time for this world's *Great War. Robert Lincoln is kind of an FDR analogue, but from a working-class origin; Abe Lincoln, his grandfather, was a lawyer and later a Justice on the Supreme Court.
I doubt he would have overreached and kept the campaigns short and defensive in order to keep the small gains after the revolution.
His massed artillery on one side of the Rhine could.have kept the Prussians out for a good while
His massed artillery on one side of the Rhine could.have kept the Prussians out for a good while
That's true, too. That one set of critical mistakes at Mainz essentially set the ball of disaster rolling, and when it stopped, it would come to harm everyone in France, not just the leadership.....just under 40 years of Bourbon misrule could have been avoided if Hoche had just listened to his advisors a little better.....
Had potential for further advancement in his career, though that isn't saying much considering some of his colleagues. If he plays his cards right he could end up in Hoche's inner-circle but who knows what would have happened to him after Hoche's downfall.
Kingpoleon
Banned
The Life of Napoleoné Buonaparte details the life of this extraordinary man. I venture to say he would have managed to lead a counter-revolution against the First Consul and crown himself King. He seems very reasonable and ought to be a character we study more.
Absolutely nothing of consequence. Yeah sure, the kid was bright, but he was incredibly lazy. After a year's service in 1786 he goes for 21 months' leave from 1786-1788; then he goes for another 17 months' leave from 1789-1791. He fails to take Sardinia in February 1793, and then he fails to prevent Corsica from turning against the Revolution in 1793. Now sure, his placement of artillery during the Siege of Toulon was rather masterful, but his success could equally be attributed to the poor arrangements of the British defence as well.
Okay, so let's assume that despite all this, Napoleon still manages to rise up the ranks, and on top of that, survives the political atmosphere of Revolutionary France. Obviously, as a junior compared with much-more established names like Kellermann and Moreau, Bonaparte's going to be in the secondary theatre of Italy (assuming he isn't doing domestic suppression, even), and even then he's only going to be following orders. So there isn't much for him to do there, especially as any move would eventually generate a powerful reaction from Austria, who consider dominance over Northern Italy a core national interest.
And even if Napoleon manages to beat a whole host of Austrians, what is the likelihood that he won't get his reputation ruined by the unbeaten General Suvorov, once the Russians (inevitably, given the dangerous nature of Revolutionary France) get involved?
Okay, so let's assume that despite all this, Napoleon still manages to rise up the ranks, and on top of that, survives the political atmosphere of Revolutionary France. Obviously, as a junior compared with much-more established names like Kellermann and Moreau, Bonaparte's going to be in the secondary theatre of Italy (assuming he isn't doing domestic suppression, even), and even then he's only going to be following orders. So there isn't much for him to do there, especially as any move would eventually generate a powerful reaction from Austria, who consider dominance over Northern Italy a core national interest.
And even if Napoleon manages to beat a whole host of Austrians, what is the likelihood that he won't get his reputation ruined by the unbeaten General Suvorov, once the Russians (inevitably, given the dangerous nature of Revolutionary France) get involved?
Brune put the lie to that invincibility in 1799 in Switzerland, so it's certainly possible that Bonaparte could do the same. To the OP: did Bonaparte actually become a General? I'm sure he would have been promoted if he'd lived to see the Coalition withdraw from Toulon, but that not being the case, well.
General Bonaparte ? You must mean Major Bonaparte (actually, Bonaparte became general in december 1793, after the siege of Toulon).
This young corsican officer is said to have been the man who made the victory against the british besieging Toulon. But there were many brillant young officers in those times.
I can't figure out how his living longer could have any impact on the course of events. Of course he would probably have been promoted general ... as so many other brilliant young officers.
But why would an only half frenchman have had an impact on the destiny of France. Besides, the man had obviously made dubious political choices. He was a robesperrist, close to the tyrant's brother. If he had lived longer, his career would have probably ended in July 1794.
What the jacobin extremists and terrorists who overthrew Robespierre in order to save their own heads did not realize is how they were feared, hated and rejected by the immense majority of the french people
What is sure is that these years were years of chaos and anarchy in France. But the energy that France however demonstrated in these years of chaos was quite incredible.
It's in these conditions that the coalition of moderates and liberals decided, as we know, to restore national concord.
Now, as you know, the three men that were to become as the 3 great marshalls, Brune, Moreau and especially Davout, the most gifted of them all who gained the surname of the iron Marshall and the unconquered, progressively became masters of the country.
Was the fact that Davout succeeded to Kellerman the most important factor that enabled him, with the support of Brune, to bypass Moreau and pave the way for the establishment of a constitutional and liberal monarchy with Talleyrand as the longest standing head of government France knew since Richelieu ?
Certainly it must have been since Davout, after expelling austrians from Italy and western Germany, was able, allied to Talleyrand and Brune, to reestablish real order un France. The way they established universal suffrage and had the people vote by 93% in favour of national reconciliation, of religious tolerance and of a parliamentary monarchy, with the agreement of the duke Louis-Philip of Orléans, was a masterpiece. There was no mistery in king Louis-Philip I of Orleans elevating them to the title of Prince.
The senior Bourbons, Louis count of Lille and Charles count of Artois were definitly too stupid and stubborn and were unable to accept that times had changed once and for all.
They succeeded in reaching peace terms that Louis XIV the great would only have dreamt of : the Rhine frontier accepted by England, Switzerland, Savoy and Genova annexed to France, in exchange for the evacuation of Italy and western Germany.
France could never have made better. Otherwise, as Talleyrand said, it would have provoked endless coalitions against her in Europe.
DBWI is where we act we are in a another world, and we talk about what could have happen. (OTL)