DBWI: What Did You Do During The Red Storm?

[TRoehl]

I just finished watching the first episode of the new Battlefield series, which covered the Second Battle of the Atlantic; next week will be the Battle of Alfeld, then the Norwegian Campaign, followed by the Air Campaign. After that I'm not sure.

Anyways, as I was three at the time, I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me beyond Clancy's partial history of the war told from several first hand viewpoints, and really didn't say much about NORTHAG or SOUTHAG's activities, the Green Berets and other special forces operations. For that matter, any perspectives from the Warsaw Pact side of things are welcome too. I'm sure there are some good stories to tell out there.

For the armchair grand strategists out there, three big questions:

1) Would GSFG have had more success using their standing start option (I believe codenamed Zhukov-4)?

2) Would the Soviets have won without the US pulling off what they did on the first night of the air war with the F-117s? (OOC: Let's make the F-19s into their real life equivalent for this one)

3) Impact of the capture of that Spetznaz commander (ie level of surprise achieved).

 

[Atomo]

1) Would GSFG have had more success using their standing start option (I believe codenamed Zhukov-4)?

2) Would the Soviets have won without the US pulling off what they did on the first night of the air war with the F-117s? (OOC: Let's make the F-19s into their real life equivalent for this one)

3) Impact of the capture of that Spetznaz commander (ie level of surprise achieved).

1) They probably would have been better off with Zhukov-4. Not only for the reason quoted in the book... I think the line is 'our soldiers aren't off skiing in the f***ing Alps!'... but for the fact that they have a shorter distance to go to get more men on the line. REFORGER would not have been able to catch up to that.

I think the bigger one they missed out on was using chemical weapons, nerve agents, in the initial attack. Against the REFORGER sites it would have been brutal but effective.

2) The Soviets still would not have won, NATO anti-tank missiles are too good and too compact. Just like in the book it would have slowed them down. So would have the Green Berets/Navy SEAL/Marine Force Recon/SAS/etc sniper teams picking off commanders and radio units. Every commander you kill means the next one won't be as experienced.
I too think Clancy missed out on including the Special forces in that scenario but given the limited scope he wanted to keep it is understood.

3) The capture of the Spetznaz commander would have a huge impact on internal security within NATO as a whole, if they are willing to do it in Germany and have been prepping for it since then where else could they be? Halifax harbour? San Diego? Mountain Home AFB? As open and democratic as our societies are they could have moved in on any military or production center, not to speak of refineries, power plants, etc.

 

[Berra]

I was luckey enough to sit out the war is some faraway Swedish forrest hopping the Russians wasn't about to launch Operation Garbo but I think Clancey got it wrong on some important issues. NATO did know that the Soviet forces where about to attack with or without the Spetzaz group accident from multiple sources.

He also fail to critizise the big failures of US naval intelligence, letting a Soviet ship sneak up to Iceland unnoticed despite warning from both Swedish and German navy.

And I was in the Swedish/Indian peace and separating force so I met a lot of Eastern European people post war so I know they organized a fairly efficient resistance during the last day of the war, blowing up bridges and destroying supply lines.

 

[TRoehl]

1) They probably would have been better off with Zhukov-4. Not only for the reason quoted in the book... I think the line is 'our soldiers aren't off skiing in the f***ing Alps!'... but for the fact that they have a shorter distance to go to get more men on the line. REFORGER would not have been able to catch up to that.

I think the bigger one they missed out on was using chemical weapons, nerve agents, in the initial attack. Against the REFORGER sites it would have been brutal but effective.

The long buildup and political maneuvering did, however, buy them no Turkish/Greek front which isn't nothing. As an aside, said I would have paid good money to watch Ceaucescu's gang in action-in the words used by one military analyst:

"You really don't want to commit these forces to the WGF/CGF (aka the front)."

On the flip side, if they just make a dash for the Rhine, they've got more oil to do it with, and surprise on their side. That said without the training they got, the initial phases of the invasion could be a disaster. I tend to think it would have evened out.

 

[mattep74]

I was luckey enough to sit out the war is some faraway Swedish forrest hopping the Russians wasn't about to launch Operation Garbo but I think Clancey got it wrong on some important issues. NATO did know that the Soviet forces where about to attack with or without the Spetzaz group accident from multiple sources.

He also fail to critizise the big failures of US naval intelligence, letting a Soviet ship sneak up to Iceland unnoticed despite warning from both Swedish and German navy.

And I was in the Swedish/Indian peace and separating force so I met a lot of Eastern European people post war so I know they organized a fairly efficient resistance during the last day of the war, blowing up bridges and destroying supply lines.

ooc: Ah, the famous Operation Garbo trillogy that started out in the cold war with East Germany helping out and ending after the cold war with not east germans but the swedish used tactics from the Gulf war in 91

ic: I was 10 at the time and had trouble sleeping every night because i was afraid that i would wake up and a russian standing in my room

 

[David Floyd]

Also, who could have expected a NG Armored Division (49th TX Armored?) and a polygot force of exhausted armored units to essentially force a military decision on a still vastly numerically superior Red Army? If it didn't actually happen, I'd call it NATO-wank!

Which much of the war was anyway, once NATO got rolling. One thing for sure, the Red Storm war answered the quality vs. quantity question for all time.