Would the Ottomans have expanded (from Morocco) into Americas or West Africa, instead of the British Isles ? Or just never conquered Morocco, and instead conquered Persia ? Or Austria and Italy ?
DBWI : The Ottomans never conquered the British Isles
- Thread starter skarosianlifeform
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hmmm....that's an interesting question, after all, we could say that the conquest of the British Isles by the Ottomans was a matter of luck (weak European states, an intelligent sultan, and the "help" of the Brittish plague). I think that the Ottomans could have expanded into Americas or Persia if they had adequate luck shots..
It's just me or somebody else think that the conquest of the brittishs by the turks is kinda an ASB?, i know that happens in real life, but i have this feeling.
It's just me or somebody else think that the conquest of the brittishs by the turks is kinda an ASB?, i know that happens in real life, but i have this feeling.
Turks? The Ottoman or Uthman Caliphate of Córdoba was fiercely Syrian-Arabic! They got lucky that the Umayyads and Fatimids failed to coalesce into larger states and that France effectively exploded into a thousand pieces by the 11th century.
Oh, sorry, i don't know why everybody here in the Russian confederation calls them "turks". Maybe is just propaganda.
As the last holdout of the Christian Greek rite, it's understandable that the Rus' calls every Muslim a Tatar or Turk.
Nonetheless, the Uthmanid Dynasty was lucky in several regards. Weak papal authority, no parge opponents beyond the Pyrenees or the two Seas, and the implosion of Mercia and the subsequent chaos of Anglo-Saxon Albion were a perfect raiding goal for the Saqlabid navy of the revived caliphate. With further advances to naval technology, it was only a question of time until the Arabs would establish their first stronghold near Winchester by the 1200s. But conquest is definitely the wrong word for the Uthmanid presence in Angland.
Not really. There is Kartulia, although I cannot blame you for not knowing. Although Bulgaria and Hellas-Ionia are majority-muslim, they have significant Greek Christian minorities.
A conquest of the British Isles would have been impossible if Yahya I never converted to Islam.
Pretty obvious. Æthelred, as he was known before his conversion, and his contact to strict Maliki scholars only made Islam more attractive, especially as it allowed him to wage jihad against his Wessexian and Northumbrian neighbours. That the Mercians came to dominate the British Isles under the Sword of Maliki Islam and the de-jure vassalage to the Uthman seat of power back in Al-Andalus should therefore be no surprise.
If the Uthmanids/Ottomans never established naval bases beyond the Pyrenees, Islam would have never taken hold there. Seems pretty obvious, but should have major implications, such as the potential survival of the Latin rite of Christianity. After Rome fell to the Sicilian Jabrilids in 1453, the so-called pope, head of the Latin Church, was at first forced to pay homage to the Abbasid caliph in Baghdad (in clear opposition to the Uthmanids in Cordoba) and later disowned of his clerical powers outside of Italy. Without Islam in Europe, the pope might still be there. In fact, I could see the pope and the Latin church uniting most of the Latin Christian world into a reborn Western Roman Empire to oppose the Eastern one more effectively. The Latin rite always emphasized the role of a singular head of the church and its authority, I could see them taking some sort of caliphal role at first in Italy and later in the remainder of Francia/Firanja.
Another thing would be that the twin kingdoms of Markland and Vinland would be weaker than IOTL. Without Christians refusing to pay the dhimmi taxes and fleeing from their subsequent persecution towards the New World, especially from the more zealous Germanic states like the Frisian Yusufids of the 16th century or the Berber-Burgundian Achrafids of the last two centuries. That means that the natives might convert to Islam instead of Christianity ITTL, as opposed to OTL. Especially the Cherokee were toying around with Muslim thought in the 1300s, but they instead converted to Norse Christianity after a major influx of the now Muslim-controlled Scandinavian states.
Maybe a less bloody Middle Age, religious struggles really dominated that area. ITTL we might see a more homogeneous Islam and Christianity as compared to OTL. But that's only what I'm thinking.
Astaghfirullah, that would be a huge shame, especially since the Irish's more syncretic approach to Islam allowed for much more fresh and new art directions to be explored.
I thought we agreed that Kartulia is not recognized as an official nation by the Federation of Nations, that fundamentalist nation in the Caucasus should not be given the fame they want. The Russians supporting that secessionist movement doesn't equal supporting an actual nation. Think of the local Buddhist Oirats or the Azeris who fled to that place during the big war only some twenty years ago. How inconsiderate.
IIRC, the Francian, Helvetican and Polish rites are pretty similar to the Latin Rite.
If the British Isles, Scandinavia, Finnr and Eesti had not been under Muslim control, paganism in northern Sverica, the Saam and Lithuania would probably not have survived.
Less Christian settlement in Septentoria would mean that there would probably be more pagan groups between the Misebi, the Five Seas, the Kanawa and the ocean. IOTL, the only surviving ones are the Mi’kmaq, the Nauset, the Lenape and the Haudenosaunee, and the latter two have been displaced from their native lands. The Beothuk may also still exist.
Kartulia is an actual country. I don’t like the local despot at all, but it is a country, even if it is a rather nasty one. Yes, I know about how Kartulia has been mistreating Oirats and Azeris who live in it. However, I don’t really understand why the Oirats in Kartulia have not returned to their homeland, as it is once again fully controlled by the Volga Khanate.
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Well, there are significant theological differences between them, somewhat pure Latin rite is only found in Tusqana in Italy. The Helvetican rite didn't sprung up because they exactly followed the teachings of the popes of Rheims.
I don't know about that. They were quite resilient IOTL, in a timeline where the Christians survived, I could see them survive, especially considering most of Scandinavia was pagan until the Muslims survived. Mass conversation is hardly possible, the mountainous and icy terrains of said regions prevent such assimilation. Especially the is Balts would never convert to any religion outside their own folk religions, despite Borussiyah arabizing IOTL.
Agreed, mass immigration towards the new world doomed their native inhabitants, especially once the Meksiq converted to (pseudo-)Islam once the Moroccan sufis found a way to synthesize these two ways of the One. ITTL, the new world would be much more diverse and I could see the Natives successfully limiting European settlement to Tsenacommatah or Asanaqumat as it is known by the (unlawful) Berber inhabitants and Vinland.
Oh, please, do you seriously think you should leave a totalitarian dictatorship for an universalist khanate? The Tatars of Azov would have been more accepted in the international community hadn't they assisted the nuking the forbidden city of Zhongguo. Kartulia, the Volga Khanate, the Burmese League and Fusang and their unholy alliance of expansionist freaks should not be tolerated. Guard your tongue.
Why do you say that the Balts would NEVER convert? The Prussyns did.
Seriously? Alliance? You do realize that the Volga Khanate and Kartulia hâte each other, right? Russia created Kartulia after a war AGAINST the Volga Khanate. It is also currently under a Volga Qazaq dynasty, not a Tatar one. Also, the government that was in power when Beijing was nuked (by allied Goryeo, in a desperate defensive action when it was losing ground to Zhongguo, Silla and Baekje) got couped three decades ago. By “expansionism”, you are referring to their claims against Russia and the Afghan Moguls, right? I know that the Volga Khanate is not a democracy, but “totalitarian” is a stretch. They also have not made any attempts to suppress Buddhism, unlike Kartulia.
EDIT : are you Hayastani?
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Borussiyah only adopted the belief that Muhammad (PBUH) was one of the many gods they worship, with Allah being the One to lead them. This syncretic belief is not Islam. Their equalist attitude is also quite rare to see in the proper Dar al-Islam.
THERE IS NO HATE BETWEEN NATIONS. It was all economics and pragmatism, as always. Of course, relations are frosty at best, but even if so, Kartulia imports a huge array of resources from the Horde such as black oil or gas. The Shia Horde was always an invasive nation eager to make the most out of the stability of its neighbours. Remember what they did once Chernigov seceded from the Rus'?
The Mehribanids of Azeria were the reason the Rus' backed the Kartulians in their sadly vain quest to achieve independence. They needed some outpost down there. The Volga Khanate, of course, tried to help its allies. Rus' was in the right.
Kartulia was a last ditch effort to disable the Shia Horde. With the fall of Zhongguo, Twelver Islam may have won its final victory.
This doesn't excuse any of the warcrimes commited by the Koreans or Tatars. And yes, Qazaqs are Tatars, if you were to believe the Hugh Prince of Novgorod. The coup was a reaction to the practical loss of the Long War.
Yes. Illegitimate claims, but yes.
- The Qazaq Horde is actively suppressing its actual history by claiming their rule is universal and founded on their divine right. The Altai and Sibir Khanates never existed according to their textbooks. The preceding Argyn Khanate was a fiction according to Abai II, goddamnit.
- There are reeducation camps for most muslims following some kind of Sunni thought.
- Equalism is still actively ignored.
- The Volga Khanate is after Bushehr, Homur and Loango the most corrupt place to love in.
- Press censorship is rampant, the Walid Azzaitouni Scandal of Aquitania is not once mentioned in the media there, for example.
- They participated on the wrong side of the Long War against the Sunni-Sinnish Alliance.
I'm certainly not a fundamentalist Chishti Sufi, so no. I'm from Homur back in the Southern lush coast of the Balad Jadid or the New World as most Anglish call it.
I would not say that Zhongguo "fell". The Yan Dynasty ceased to exist and Zhongguo has to been united since, but China has been divided into three states before, and all of them follow traditional Chinese culture.
They do not claim that the Altai and Sibir khanates "never existed", they overlook them. Also, historical revisionism is not only limited to totalitarian states.
The Grand War did not really have a "Sunni-Sinnish alliance". Yes, the Caliphate and China were the main powers of one bloc, but it was more of a co-belligerency than an alliance, and there were Sunni powers on the other side as well, like Upper Egypt[4], Mali[5] and Rum[6], at least before the latter's civil war.
Wait, re-education camps?
[does a search]
[oh dear]
...I'm just going to drop the conversation about the Volga Khanate now. I had no idea that it had gotten this bad.
OK.
I will now return to the actual topic of discussion.
If you want to know how a christian Britain would look like, a good starting place may be the Christian areas of Britain. The Republic of Western Eire [1] is majority Christian (primarily Celtic Rite, with some areas along the western coast being Norwegian rite). Also, the autonomous region of Wilz [2] is majority Welsh Right Christian. High Scutia[3] has significant Celtic and Norwegian Rite Christian minorities. I would assume, based on this, that a Christianised British Isles would be split between Celtic and Norwegian rite Christians (both of which predated the PoD). Therefore, Christianity in the British Isles would probably be heavily syncretic, for the same reasons that Islam in the British Isles and Greater Scandinavia presently is.
[1]OOC:approximately Munster Province, Connaught Province, Donegal County and the four westernmost counties of Munster
[2]OOC: approximately Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Gwynedd, Anglesey, Conwy and Denbighshire
[3]OOC:Exactly where you think it is
[4]OOC:Approximately the Sudans (pre-war)
[5]OOC:Approximately Guinea, Senegal, Mali and Mauretania (pre-war)
[6]OOC:Approximately a Muslim Byzantine Empire; disintegrated into the Emirate of Montenegro, the Republic of Hellas-Ionia, the Republic of Anatolian Turkestan, the Emirate of Montenegro, the Khanate of Crimea, a rump state (later Shqiperia) and areas taken over by Kurdistan, Hayastan and Bulgaria
They do not claim that the Altai and Sibir khanates "never existed", they overlook them. Also, historical revisionism is not only limited to totalitarian states.
The Grand War did not really have a "Sunni-Sinnish alliance". Yes, the Caliphate and China were the main powers of one bloc, but it was more of a co-belligerency than an alliance, and there were Sunni powers on the other side as well, like Upper Egypt[4], Mali[5] and Rum[6], at least before the latter's civil war.
Wait, re-education camps?
[does a search]
[oh dear]
...I'm just going to drop the conversation about the Volga Khanate now. I had no idea that it had gotten this bad.
OK.
I will now return to the actual topic of discussion.
If you want to know how a christian Britain would look like, a good starting place may be the Christian areas of Britain. The Republic of Western Eire [1] is majority Christian (primarily Celtic Rite, with some areas along the western coast being Norwegian rite). Also, the autonomous region of Wilz [2] is majority Welsh Right Christian. High Scutia[3] has significant Celtic and Norwegian Rite Christian minorities. I would assume, based on this, that a Christianised British Isles would be split between Celtic and Norwegian rite Christians (both of which predated the PoD). Therefore, Christianity in the British Isles would probably be heavily syncretic, for the same reasons that Islam in the British Isles and Greater Scandinavia presently is.
[1]OOC:approximately Munster Province, Connaught Province, Donegal County and the four westernmost counties of Munster
[2]OOC: approximately Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Gwynedd, Anglesey, Conwy and Denbighshire
[3]OOC:Exactly where you think it is
[4]OOC:Approximately the Sudans (pre-war)
[5]OOC:Approximately Guinea, Senegal, Mali and Mauretania (pre-war)
[6]OOC:Approximately a Muslim Byzantine Empire; disintegrated into the Emirate of Montenegro, the Republic of Hellas-Ionia, the Republic of Anatolian Turkestan, the Emirate of Montenegro, the Khanate of Crimea, a rump state (later Shqiperia) and areas taken over by Kurdistan, Hayastan and Bulgaria