In 1957 the Dodgers were going to move to L.A. and the Giants to San Fransisco when Walter O'Mally suddenly died. The new ownership of the Dodgers went with Robert Mose's plan,became the New York Dodgers and now play at Flushing Meadows Stadium and the Giants went with their original plan and moved to Minnesota. Do you think that the "A.L.-N.L. Expansion Wars" could have been advoided if the Dodgers and Giants moved to California?
DBWI: The Dodgers and Giants move to California
- Thread starter ejpsan
- Start date
Here's mine
AP
BLOOMINGTON, MN
The New York Giants have come to terms with Minnesota officials to move the team to Bloomington. After a battle with NL officials from everything from the move itself to the team's official name to its nickname, the Giants have finally moved.
The New York Giants played for nearly 3 quarters of a century in the city of New York. After failing to get a new stadium, the New York Giants have moved to Minnesota.
The new team, now known as the Minnesota Twins, will begin play in 1958 in Metropolitan stadium, located in suburban Bloomington, MN. The team decided on the Minnesota name as a compromise with the National League. The former Giants petitioned for the team to call themselves the "Twin Cities Giants". However, the league rejected the petition, citing that the location name is a regional nickname and not an actual officially recognized name on a map. As a comprimise, they chose their current name. The Minnesota Twins are the first MLB or NFL team to hail themselves from a state rather than a specific city.
AP
NEW YORK CITY
PCL announces east coast division
With the departure of the New York Giants to Minnesota, the PCL has announced that it will be filling the void left by the New York Giants by expanding to the East Coast. New teams will be located in established baseball markets such as New York City, Philadelphia and Boston, as well as untapped markets in the east such as Buffalo, Atlanta and Miami.
You forgot about Branch Rickey and the Continental League plan to have teams in L.A. San Fransisco, Denver, Houston, New York,Atlanta and Seattle. But in 1958 the N.L. announced they were going to expand to L.A. and San Fransisco in 1960 and immediately after that the A.L. announced they were going to L.A.(Hollywood Stars owned by Gene Aurtry and CBS) and somewhere else in the S.F. Bay area(Oakland or San Jose). The N.L. franchise was going to be owned by a group chosen by Phillp Wrigley (owner of the PCL L.A. Angels).
My take ... With the Giants moving, the owner of the Washington Senators wanted out of his market next. He eyed what O'Malley had been lining up in LA and wanted to leap on that idea. But jealousy by the rest of the American League ownership made any moves to the West Coast by any existing owner impossible. So in 1960, the Senators got limited to moving only as far as Houston. However the AL owners did see the value in grabbing the West Coast first, so they approved two expansion teams to start up in 1960; one in San Francisco and one in Los Angeles.
The National League quickly determined they were going to strike back and also move west. However the Senators move generated a bit of Congressional blowback in the Nation's capital. And the National League was the one impacted by it. In 1961, one expansion team went to Washington and the other got into LA.
In 1966, with attendance trending down, the Milwaukee Braves moved to Atlanta.
In 1967, the owner of the Kansas City Athletics investigated whether there was room for him on the West Coast. But with the two big markets already taken by AL clubs, he got no leverage with the other league owners. So he stayed put having to be satisfied with Chicago and Houston as his two closest geographic rivals.
In 1969, both leagues agreed to expand by 2 teams each. With only one West Coast club, the National League was allowed to expand into the smaller markets of Seattle and San Diego. The American League looked to lock up the plains states and added teams in Denver and Dallas. It was in this year that both leagues split into two divisions and a round of playoffs was added.
In 1977, the AL thought it could monopolize another market and decided to expand into Canada. Montreal, as the largest city, was hotly debated, but the league made the decision that despite a history in the International League, it was a metropolitan area too devoted to monetarily supporting hockey. Thus Toronto and a surprising choice of Vancouver were selected as the new locations.
In 1987, the NL looking to take advantage of an improving economy launched the next round of expansion. They wanted a shot at the population migration to the sunbelt, and awarded teams to Miami and Phoenix.
After the expense of the 1992 Collusion decision against the players Union, both leagues were looking at a quick way to refinance their coffers and look to Expansion Fees as a way to do it. Unfortunately the economy was in a bit of a downturn and neither side was willing to only settle for one expansion team. In 1996, the bold decision was made to do a repeat of 1969 and add 2 teams to each league. Then each league could break down into 4 divisions of 4 teams each. So in 1999 the American League added a team in Portland and one in Tampa Bay. The National League added teams in San Jose and Charlotte.
The distribution of teams went accordingly:
NL West:
- Seattle
- San Jose
- Los Angeles
- San Diego
NL Central:
- Minnesota
- Chicago
- St. Louis
- Phoenix
NL North East:
- New York
- Philadelphia
- Pittsburg
- Cincinnati
NL South East:
- Washington
- Charlotte
- Atlanta
- Miami
AL West:
- Vancouver
- Portland
- San Francisco
- Los Angeles
AL Central:
- Denver
- Kansas City
- Dallas
- Houston
AL Midwest:
- Chicago
- Detroit
- Cleveland
- Toronto
AL East:
- Boston
- New York
- Baltimore
- Tampa Bay
The National League quickly determined they were going to strike back and also move west. However the Senators move generated a bit of Congressional blowback in the Nation's capital. And the National League was the one impacted by it. In 1961, one expansion team went to Washington and the other got into LA.
In 1966, with attendance trending down, the Milwaukee Braves moved to Atlanta.
In 1967, the owner of the Kansas City Athletics investigated whether there was room for him on the West Coast. But with the two big markets already taken by AL clubs, he got no leverage with the other league owners. So he stayed put having to be satisfied with Chicago and Houston as his two closest geographic rivals.
In 1969, both leagues agreed to expand by 2 teams each. With only one West Coast club, the National League was allowed to expand into the smaller markets of Seattle and San Diego. The American League looked to lock up the plains states and added teams in Denver and Dallas. It was in this year that both leagues split into two divisions and a round of playoffs was added.
In 1977, the AL thought it could monopolize another market and decided to expand into Canada. Montreal, as the largest city, was hotly debated, but the league made the decision that despite a history in the International League, it was a metropolitan area too devoted to monetarily supporting hockey. Thus Toronto and a surprising choice of Vancouver were selected as the new locations.
In 1987, the NL looking to take advantage of an improving economy launched the next round of expansion. They wanted a shot at the population migration to the sunbelt, and awarded teams to Miami and Phoenix.
After the expense of the 1992 Collusion decision against the players Union, both leagues were looking at a quick way to refinance their coffers and look to Expansion Fees as a way to do it. Unfortunately the economy was in a bit of a downturn and neither side was willing to only settle for one expansion team. In 1996, the bold decision was made to do a repeat of 1969 and add 2 teams to each league. Then each league could break down into 4 divisions of 4 teams each. So in 1999 the American League added a team in Portland and one in Tampa Bay. The National League added teams in San Jose and Charlotte.
The distribution of teams went accordingly:
NL West:
- Seattle
- San Jose
- Los Angeles
- San Diego
NL Central:
- Minnesota
- Chicago
- St. Louis
- Phoenix
NL North East:
- New York
- Philadelphia
- Pittsburg
- Cincinnati
NL South East:
- Washington
- Charlotte
- Atlanta
- Miami
AL West:
- Vancouver
- Portland
- San Francisco
- Los Angeles
AL Central:
- Denver
- Kansas City
- Dallas
- Houston
AL Midwest:
- Chicago
- Detroit
- Cleveland
- Toronto
AL East:
- Boston
- New York
- Baltimore
- Tampa Bay
It could not have been avoided. Even if the Dodgers and Giants went to California there were too many owners looking to move and cities that needed a team via expansion. If the Dodgers left NY another team would have come in- NY is a huge market and too big for only 2 teams. Thats why the Kansas City A's moved to Jersey in the 70's.
The N.F.L.-A.F.L. also had an effect on baseball in 1963 with the voters in San Diego, Oakland and Atlanta all approving new multi-sport stadiums to be built. The new stadiums all were ready in the Fall of 1965 for football and baseball in 1966. Calvin Griffith Sr. the owner of the Washington Senators was a known bigot and wanted to move out of D.C. he first looked at San Diego but he was told they wanted a N.L. team, he then moved the team to Atlanta but the joke was on him when he found out that the Atlanta stadium was in the black section of town, he soon sold the team to local investors. In 1958 both L.A. and San Fransisco voters approved new stadiums. The Los Angeles Angels were going to play in the new stadium in Chavez Ravine, the Stars did not like that they were going to be the second tenants so they played in an expanded Gilmour Field until 1965 when they moved to Anaheim and became the California Stars. The Oakland Raiders(AFL) and the Oakland Oaks(AL) played in Frank Youell Field until Oakland-Alameda Stadium was open. The San Fransisco Seals(NL) got a new stadium in China Basin(the mayor of San Fransisco tried to get it built at Candlestick Point). After the 1965 baseball season the Milwaukee Braves and the Cincinnati Reds were talking to San Diego about moving, even though the Reds were the parent team of the San Diego Padres(PCL) the city reached agreement with the Braves. In Nov.1965 the A.L. annouced they were open to expansion bids. Buffalo, Seattle, Toronto and Newark all applied. In Jan 1966 the N.L. annouced they were going to expand to Houston and Washington D.C.
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In 1959 the Dodgers won the World Series their last year in Brooklyn but the attendance was down, the people of Brooklyn did not approve the move to Queens and the Giants fans did not transfer their loyalty to the Dodgers. The owners of the Dodgers considered changing their name to the New York Burros(boroughs) or the Metropolitans but in the end they decided to add the color orange to their uniform. the Minneapolis-St. Paul Giants set attendance records the first four years in Minnesota. In 1962 when the Dodgers and Giants tied for first place in the NL there was a three game playoff and the Dodgers players complained that there was more Giant fans in the Flushing Meadows Stadium then there was Dodgers fans. Only when Brooklyn born Sandy Koulfax was pitching did the old Brooklyn Dodgers fan turn out at the ballpark.
The American League after experiencing the stadium problems that the Stars and Oaks had (two small ballparks hastily expanded and inadequate for major league baseball) demanded that any expansion bid must include new stadiums that are publicly financed. Milwaukee filed an anti-trust suit against the NL and tried to get an injunction against the move of the Braves to San Diego. After trying to move to San Diego, the Cincinnati Reds demanded a new stadium and with the merger of the NFL and AFL, Cincinnati received an AFL expansion franchise, a new Stadium was planned along the Ohio River front. The New York Dodgers started to pick up attendance with back to back World Series appearances in 1965 defeating the Atlanta Flames and losing to the Baltimore Orioles in 1966. The 1963 World Series Dodgers vs. Yankees was poorly attended with only two sellouts at Yankee Stadium and only 80% of Flushing Meadows Stadium sold out.(Yankees fans made up a large part of the attendees). The Dodgers ran an advertising campaign proclaiming that "We Are New York" featuring prominent New York celebrities and a song by Stephan Sondheim that later became a hit song for Frank Sinatra.
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Milwaukee tried to get an injunction to prevent the move of the Braves to San Diego, it did not get it, but it did get an injunction against the NL expanding without an open bidding process. Baltimore also opposed the NL expanding to Washington D.C. claiming when the Senators moved it took over its territory. Voters in Kansas City defeated a tax increase to build a domed stadium downtown for the Athletics and the Chiefs. In Seattle voters approved a new waterfront stadium to be opened in 1969 also the King County commissioners and the Seattle city council approved improvements to Sick Stadium for use as a temporary home to a new expansion franchise. Buffalo wanted to bid on one of the new AL expansion franchise, but Ralph Wilson did not want to share a stadium with a baseball team and threatened to move the Bills to a new city if he did not get his own stadium. The owners of the New York Yankees told the rest of the AL owners that Northern New Jersey was their territory and it will block any move by the AL or NL to put a team there. The Braves after their move to San Diego they changed their name to the Padres after the PCL team. With new ownership in San Diego, the Padres drew over 1.2 million fans their first year.
That's the reason the new ballpark will be built in Brookyn and why the new owners put Brooklyn back on the uniforms in 2010. That alone led to a 10% increase in attendence that year.
Flushing Meadows sucks as a stadium, it looks like the mothership in Close Encounters II, has the atmosphere of a warehouse, it's the last ballpark with Astro turf and the beer is flat. I'm going to cheer when they blow that thing up.
The new version of Ebbets Field is nothing less than a dream come true. The field dimensions will be almost identical, with a special dispensation from Commisioner Bush to have the short right field line, event though it is shorter than the minimum.
Getting back to the OP, while the Giants probably will move, as Stoneham nearly ran them into the ground in NY, I just can't see the Dodgers moving, they are just buried too deep into the psyche of New York and Brooklyn. They have drawn well enough to compete, even in the wrong borough and even with the worst stadium in sports history, and the new Ebbets Field is already sold out for the 2013 season.
Not even Walter O'Malley and Robert Moses combined are dumb enough to force the Dodgers out of the New York area.
Dodger fans accepted "New York" in the name, they lived with it, Sinatra not withstanding. They never loved it.
In Houston the Harris County Stadium opened in 1965 in time for the Houston Oilers football season but with the injunction against the NL from expanding Houston officials started to look at existing teams, first in Jan. 1966 Charlie O'Finley owner of the Kanas City Athletics wanted to move there but AL owners were opposed, the Chicago White Sox opened talks with Houston but it was seen as leverage with the city of Chicago. Horace Stoneham owner of the Minneapolis-St. Paul Giants saw how new stadiums on the west coast were leading to increased revenues cited a clause in the lease agreement, announced in Feb. 1966 that the Giants were moving to Houston immediately. The NL owners approved the move and a lawsuit by the Minnesota's officials was dismissed by the courts and the Giants started play as the Houston Giants but in 1967 they will be called the Astros. In New York, the remaining Giants fans saw the move as the straw that broke the camel's back and started to(begrudgenly) root for the Dodgers.
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The National League allowed the Giants to move to Houston because they did not want the American League to get there first. Stoneham had to pay a relocation fee of $5 million dollars over ten years payed out by his share of national T.V. money and any possible future expansion fees. The April Sports Illustrated spring baseball issue had on it's cover Hank Aaron wearing his Milwaukee Braves uniform and his San Diego Padres uniform, Harmon Killebrew wearing a Washington Senators uniform and an Atlanta Flames uniform and Willie Mays wearing his Minneapolis-St. Paul Giants uniform and a matted picture of him wearing a proposed Houston Astros uniform. The title on the cover was "Baseball's New Look" In Seattle an architecture engineer for Boeing and a professor of architecture at the University of Washington drew up plans for a retractable domed stadium that could be used for both baseball and football and unlike the Harris County Stadium in Houston it did not need air conditioning. In June 1966 the AL and the NL met over a series of meetings to discus the settlement of territories and future of expansion. It was decided that in New York that the Yankees had the territory rights to the county of New York(the boroughs of the Bronx and Manhattan) and the county of Richmond(the borough of Staten Island) and the Dodgers had Kings County(the boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens) and Suffolk County and Nassau County(Long Island). Northern New Jersey was reserved for any future American League team(existing or new franchise) with a territory rights fee payed both to the Yankees and Dodgers and Westchester County being reserved for the National League and also territory rights fees payed to the Dodgers and Yankees. Washington D,C. territory rights were assigned to the National League with no fees payed to the Orioles. It was also decided that both leagues would expand three years after the injunction against the National League was lifted, with the American League expanding to the West Coast.
Ownership turmoil in San Diego: In Nov 1965 the Braves were sold to a group in San Diego led by the owner of the PCL Padres C Arnholt Smith, other owners included San Diego Union and Evening Tribune publisher James Copley,businessman Bob Brietbart, actor Gregory Peck, and Jimmy Durante among others. Smith had 40% of the team and was the president and general partner, former Dodger executive Buzzie Bavasi was the General Manager and V.P. of Baseball Operations had 10% of the team Almost immediately Smith was making cash calls on the other investors, he was claiming that the team was losing money and he was going behind the back of Bavasi trying to sell the best players for cash. The league office stopped the trades and told Smith that he had no authority to make any trades. In August 1966 a reporter for the Evening Tribune went to a game with his family and asked a parking lot attendant how many cars there was in the parking lot and he was told "half". The reporter dug around and found out at weekend games, Smith would go to the parking lot concessioner and demand the Padres share of parking money instead of waiting for the cash to be deposited in the Padres' bank account on Mondays. Soon after Smith started that practice, he and the parking concessioner started to undercount the cars and was splitting the money between them. In June 1967, after another cash call, the other investors demanded that Smith open the books and if he did not, they were going to sue him. On June 12th,1967 Smith was stopped at the San Yisdro border crossing with over $50,000 in cash, also with Mexican bank account slips with his name on them. An investigation found out that Smith's financial empire which included Bumble Bee Tuna and United States National Bank and other companies was insolvent and he was shifting money from one company to another. The courts ordered Smith to open the books and it was found that Smith was double and triple paying himself with fees and commissions. One of the deals was that Smith as owner of the PCL Padres, payed himself $75,000 a year in perpetuity for the rights to the San Diego market, also he sold Westgate Park, home of the PCL Padres to the major league team at higher than market rate, then sold the land back to himself for a dollar, the land later became the Fashion Valley Mall. The courts ordered the team to be sold and the giving the proceeds to the other partners. The new owner was McDonald's founder and a friend of the owner of the Cubs owner, Ray A Kroc.
Before Seattle voted in Nov. 1965 on a new stadium, a professor of architecture from the University of Washington went on a tour of new stadiums in Atlanta, St. Louis, Oakland, Houston and San Diego. He found that there was several drawbacks to the multi- purpose stadium concept such high walls and deep power alleys in the baseball configuration, and in the football configuration, the first few rows along the sidelines you only could see the backside of the players. Along with an architectural engineer from Boeing, they came up with plans for a retractable domed stadium that with various slides, tracks, glides, and folds that in a baseball configuration it held anywhere from 35,000-46,000 and in the football configuration it held anywhere from 65,000-80,000 with no obstructed views and unlike Harris County Stadium in Houston, it did not need air conditioning. They presented their plans in 1966 and it was approved to be built in Seattle Center by the Space Needle instead along the Puget Sound Waterfront. By the end of 1966 the expansion of Sick Stadium was completed with a new capacity of 32,000. The owner of the Cleavland Indians tried to get permission from the American League to talk to Seattle about relocating but it was not granted. In Kansas City Charlie O. Finley was told publicly that along as he owned the Athletics there will be no new stadium. The Athletics were allowed then to move to Seattle and they began play in 1967, after hearing about the move Sen. Symington of MO.said "Seattle is the luckiest city since Hiroshima". After the Giants move from Minnesota, MN Sens. Mondale and McCarthy called for repeal of baseball's anti-trust protection, they were soon joined by MO. Sens. Symington and Long and also by V.P. Humphrey.
The owner of the Washington Senators, Calvin Griffith Sr. was not happy with the move to the new D.C. stadium in 1962 so he used a loophole in the lease agreement to get out of the nation's capitol only days before the start of the 1965 season. He moved the team to Atlanta, but it's new stadium was not going to be ready until July 15th, 1965. The Senators changed their name to the Flames. They moved so fast to Atlanta, that their uniforms were their old Washington uniforms that had the old names ripped out and the old outline was visible, the new uniforms were not going to be ready until the 1966 season. They played in a minor league ballpark hastely expanded and with so many problems with the locker rooms and groundskeeping that the American League almost had the move back to Washington D.C. Despite all of that, they won the AL pennant that year.
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I don't think Milwaukee will move out of state once the Giants move to Minnesota. Minnesota and Wisconsin has a rivalry which equals few state rivalries in intensity. That rivalry alone would keep the Braves in Milwaukee. Atlanta will get the Senators and rename themselves the Atlanta Generals. I don't think Milwaukee will move out of state once the Giants move to Minnesota. Minnesota and Wisconsin has a rivalry which equals few state rivalries in intensity. That rivalry alone would keep the Braves in Milwaukee. Atlanta will get the Senators and rename themselves the Atlanta Generals.
After the injunction against the NL from expanding was lifted in late Nov. 1967, both leagues announced that they would expand with two teams each and with the new TV contract beginning in 1969 both leagues will each have two divisions and a best three out of five league championship series. The leagues will award the new franchises in 1968 and the new teams will start play in 1971. In Kansas City after the A's left town the voters approved a bond measure to build both a football stadium and a baseball stadium on the Missouri River front in downtown K.C. In Minnesota the state government approved a new domed stadium in Minneapolis. Washington D.C., Buffalo, Dallas, Montreal, Denver, Toronto, and Portland all applied for the new NL franchises with K.C. and Minneapolis were already promised the AL franchises. In Buffalo the city, Erie County and the State of New York approved a plan to build a new multi-purpose domed stadium in downtown Buffalo with temporary upgrades to War Memorial Stadium. The owner of the Buffalo Bills, Ralph Wilson did not want to share a stadium with a baseball team and threatened to move the Bills. In June 1968 the NL awarded the franchises to Washington D.C. and in a surprise move, Buffalo. The D.C. team will be called the Nationals, and the Buffalo team will be called the Pilots. The K.C. owner wanted to name the new team the Blues after the old minor league team but the NHL St. Louis team took the name, his second choice was the Royals, after the Royal Horse show but a move by former Negro League players aided by Jackie Robinson pushed for the team to be called the Monarchs after the old Negro League team. The Minnesota team will be called the Twins. Sorry about not keeping up with the thread but life got in the way.
Article
I found a write-up about this today when I Googled this topic:
http://www.toosmarttofail.com/whatif.html
Basically, it suggests that the Dodgers may have decided to renovate Ebbets Field instead of move, and then get a dome in Brooklyn by the early-70's.
It also says that the Giants will move to Minny.
I found a write-up about this today when I Googled this topic:
http://www.toosmarttofail.com/whatif.html
Basically, it suggests that the Dodgers may have decided to renovate Ebbets Field instead of move, and then get a dome in Brooklyn by the early-70's.
It also says that the Giants will move to Minny.
In 1968 construction began on the new multi-purpose stadium in Seattle. It was based on a new design concept that would bring some new ideas such as wide aisles, more restrooms with an equal share between men's and women's restroom, luxury boxes and for patrons who could not afford the boxes there were club seating that had amenities such as seat side service, lounge areas with TV consoles that show games from other markets. In Milwaukee the city was told informally told that it would not get any of the new franchises but maybe the Chicago White Sox will move there if they build a new stadium leading to the phrase "If you build it, maybe they will come". Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati started building new stadiums that all looked liked the stadiums in St. Louis and Atlanta leading to critics calling the new stadiums "cookie cutter stadiums". The Dallas Cowboys started building a new stadium in Irving TX, that was football only and featured luxury boxes. In Buffalo, the owner of the Bills, Ralph Wilson said if he did not get his own stadium he would move the team. The Yankees and the New York Football Giants started talking to New Jersey about building stadiums for them in the Meadowland as part of a new sports complex the state was going to build there.